July 31, 2024
Viuda del magistrado Carlos Urán responde a la Fiscalía
WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.480 --> 00:00:07.480
In the WU the report of Colonel, then, Daniel, let us recapitulate
2
00:00:07.559 --> 00:00:12.759
on a topic that you have studied
so many years, well, since the
3
00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:19.280
taking of the Palace of Justice,
and how interesting this turn that the investigation
4
00:00:19.320 --> 00:00:23.719
is giving for the truth in the
case of Judge Urán, What brings the
5
00:00:23.719 --> 00:00:28.079
report today, Daniel, Good July. This is the Colonel report and it
6
00:00:28.120 --> 00:00:34.920
is the story of a family that
has been seeking justice for thirty- eight
7
00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:40.799
years, eight months and twenty-
five days. Nearly forty years have passed
8
00:00:41.600 --> 00:00:45.759
since the day Carlos Horacio Urán,
Judge of Assistant to the Council of State,
9
00:00:46.039 --> 00:00:50.759
called to the University of the Andes
his wife, Professor Ana MarÃa VI
10
00:00:51.039 --> 00:00:55.640
of Cain, to tell him that
an unidentified group was taking blood and fire
11
00:00:55.679 --> 00:01:00.240
their place of work from the Palacio
Justicia in Plaza de BolÃvar in Bogotá.
12
00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:08.840
Despite the terrible circumstances, the teacher
told her four girls, her four daughters,
13
00:01:10.239 --> 00:01:15.319
that perhaps the father was alive and
leaving the building, taken into terrorist
14
00:01:15.400 --> 00:01:21.319
action by the then guerrillas of the
19th eMe and then taken back with criminal
15
00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:30.519
abuse of force by the military.
The dim hope became an immense joy when
16
00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:38.120
journalist Julia Navarrete told Ana MarÃa that
she had seen Judge Durán alive leaving the
17
00:01:38.159 --> 00:01:45.799
palace a fleeting image recorded by the
television news 24 hours records the moment when
18
00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:55.280
the man was wounded from the building
jumping on a leg. Ana Maria got
19
00:01:55.319 --> 00:02:00.000
the video fragment with great difficulty and
went to General Nelson MejÃa' s office.
20
00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:07.640
For those days, the deputy attorney
for the military forces, there was
21
00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:10.960
no response. Instead, the video
was lost in the hands of the military.
22
00:02:13.039 --> 00:02:17.080
On Friday, November 8, a
friend of the family found the body
23
00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:23.560
of Carlos Horacio Urán in the facilities
of the Institute of Legal Medicine in Bogotá.
24
00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:30.039
The body was not with the other
civilians killed, but in another room
25
00:02:30.759 --> 00:02:37.360
with the guerrillas killed by the army. On the contra take. They didn
26
00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:44.360
' t find his IDs. The
body was naked, smoked and with several
27
00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:50.240
wounds, one in one leg,
one in the chest and the one that
28
00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:57.159
killed him in the head made at
close range. Since the first autopsy,
29
00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:02.840
the cause of his death is determined
by the powder tattoo of the skull.
30
00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:15.280
The forensic report says Abrocomillas died from
a nine- millimeter projectile fired at his
31
00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:21.159
head to contact. So far the
quote, that is, the magistrate did
32
00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:25.360
not kill him in the crossfire of
long weapons, but a certain gun shot
33
00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:31.879
fired a few centimeters from his head. Soldiers and guerrillas were carrying rifles and
34
00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:37.479
machine guns that day. Guns weren' t the weapons used in that operation.
35
00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:43.439
After the nightmare of the father'
s death, another followed a while
36
00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:47.479
later the threats to the widow began
so that she would not find out more
37
00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:53.639
from the circumstances. She and her
four daughters had to leave Colombia. They
38
00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:59.199
went to the United States and then
to several countries in Europe. They rearmed
39
00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:05.439
their lives by speaking languages other than
Spanish and trying to forget the terrible loss
40
00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:13.039
of Dad. Twenty- two years
passed before anyone really cared about investigating what
41
00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:18.800
happened at the Palace of Justice.
That person was the female prosecutor delegated to
42
00:04:18.839 --> 00:04:25.959
the Supreme Court, Angela MarÃa Buitrago, today Minister of Justice. In two
43
00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:31.560
thousand and seven, Dr Buitrago ordered
the raid on the vaults of the Military
44
00:04:32.120 --> 00:04:36.319
Intelligence Service, the b DOS,
in the northern canton of Bogotá. There
45
00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:44.800
they found a document entitled Guerrillas decommissioned
into combat in the Palace of Justice.
46
00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:53.160
To the surprise of the judicial investigators, on the list are the names of
47
00:04:53.319 --> 00:04:59.120
the titular judge of the Supreme Court, Manuel Gaona Cruz and the Auxiliary Judge
48
00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:02.680
of the Council of State Carlos los
Horacio Urán. Also in the vaults of
49
00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:09.439
b two they found, as I
say, twenty- two years later,
50
00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:15.240
the wallet of magistrate Durán. There
he had his State Council credential, his
51
00:05:15.399 --> 00:05:19.839
ID card, his driver' s
license, a residue of an air space
52
00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:26.000
and his wife' s photo,
Ana MarÃa Videgai. All the documents were
53
00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:32.439
pierced by a bullet that went through
the wallet a few months later through a
54
00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:42.040
source of information whose identity I will
not reveal I never received the copy of
55
00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:46.560
the lost video two decades earlier.
At that time I worked as a news
56
00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:50.519
director one with the group of journalists
of the news and looking in archives of
57
00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:57.519
the media of the time, we
reconstructed the facts. We found two other
58
00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:04.279
videos showing the same scene of Urán
jumping on one leg as he left the
59
00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:11.199
palace. A copy of that recording
was found by the prosecution in the house
60
00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:16.160
of Colonel Luis Alfonso Plazas Vega,
commander of the School of Cavalry, the
61
00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:21.639
military unit that arrived at the Palace
of Justice with the tanks. I looked
62
00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:29.240
for Professor Ana Maria Bidegain, who
worked at a university in the United States
63
00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:35.560
and recognized her husband. In the
videos. He was also identified by Judge
64
00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:41.639
Nicolás Pájaro Peñaranda, who was for
hours in a bathroom in the Palace of
65
00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:47.680
Justice with dozens of hostages, including
Carlos Horacio Urán, and left the building
66
00:06:48.360 --> 00:06:55.399
destroyed a few seconds after him.
As the same videos record it, he
67
00:06:55.519 --> 00:07:00.079
also managed to identify it. He
remembered journalist gel N Castro, Caicedo,
68
00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:06.920
who was his friend and for twenty- two years had been looking for clues
69
00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:15.279
and investigating the circumstances of his death, with the investigations of prosecutor Angel Buitrago
70
00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:19.079
and also with the findings of that
journalistic investigation. Seven years later, in
71
00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:28.399
the year two thousand and fourteen,
the Inter- American Court concluded quotation marks.
72
00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:34.560
It can be established that Carlos Horacio
Urán was wounded in the left leg
73
00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:40.720
inside the Palace of Justice, but
left the palace alive in the custody of
74
00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:46.759
state agents and his departure was not
documented alive on the lists of survivors drawn
75
00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:54.920
up by the State. The Inter- American Court then continues. Subsequently,
76
00:07:55.319 --> 00:08:01.399
when he was in a state of
defencelessness caused by the other injuries, he
77
00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:07.079
was executed. His body was stripped
of clothes, washed and taken to the
78
00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:16.079
Institute of Legal Medicine. This court
established that Carlos Horacio Urán was executed while
79
00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:24.519
in the custody of state agents,
which constituted an extrajudicial execution. The Inter
80
00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:31.439
- American Court of Human Rights concludes, which orders the Colombian State in the
81
00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:39.240
same ruling to investigate and identify those
responsible for the crime. In a few
82
00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:43.759
weeks, a commission of the Inter- American Court will come to Colombia to
83
00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:48.039
find out the progress of that investigation. Unfortunately, they will face a setback.
84
00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:54.120
Last week, the prosecutor delegated to
the Marlennorhuela Court, came to a
85
00:08:54.159 --> 00:09:01.519
conclusion that contradicts years of investigations.
She says the auxiliary magistrate was killed in
86
00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:09.440
the hostages' bathroom I open quotation
marks. Dr Carlos Horacio Urán Rojas was
87
00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:13.399
one of the hostages who remained from
November 6 until the end of the assault
88
00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:18.440
in the bathroom on the 3rd floor. The documentation in this performance shows that
89
00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:22.960
he lost his life on November 7th
of a thousand nine hundred and eighty-
90
00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:28.960
five, at fifteen hours in accordance
with the Protocol of Necropsy. His body
91
00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:33.159
was raised inside the Palace of Justice
at 16 hours on the 7th of November,
92
00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:37.000
one thousand nine hundred and eighty-
five. The prosecutor does not take
93
00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:41.120
into account that the magistrate' s
body was not found in the bathroom in
94
00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:45.799
which the group of hostages of the
19th eMe terrorists were present, but two
95
00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:50.320
floors down in the inner square of
the Palace of Justice. How do you
96
00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:54.720
explain whether Necrops' protocol states that
he died at fifteen hours that at sixteen
97
00:09:54.039 --> 00:10:01.399
the body had been moved only to
the courtyard of the building. Dr Arjuela,
98
00:10:01.879 --> 00:10:05.960
who came to the case just a
few months ago, concludes that the
99
00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:13.039
videos that support the investigation are not
clear enough quotes. With the quality of
100
00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:16.440
the videos it was not possible to
perform the requested matching. The videos are
101
00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:24.960
not suitable for them. Close quotes. The decision enshrines impunity for the death
102
00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:31.600
of Judge Carlos Horacio uran A.
This time we greet Professor Ana MarÃa Bidegain,
103
00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:37.440
widow of Judge Carlos Ora Ciorán.
Good morning, Doctor, Good morning,
104
00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:45.919
Thank you, Paul Call me,
Doctor, how do you receive this
105
00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:50.399
decision from the prosecutor plus Noruela law. Okay. I think more than surprise.
106
00:10:52.519 --> 00:10:56.000
I get the feeling what you'
re looking for with this. I
107
00:10:56.039 --> 00:11:03.159
mean, he used him. It
was the first thing I thought, that
108
00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:13.480
is, to surprise us all really
shocked, because, as you well say,
109
00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:20.080
there is a wealth of information,
which was what allowed the Inter-
110
00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:26.919
American Court to see its ruling and
it is very particular to challenge an international
111
00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:33.720
court. On the other hand,
it strikes me because we return to the
112
00:11:33.799 --> 00:11:41.399
first story that I received a few
days after the event, Samuel Buitrago,
113
00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:48.159
who was very worked in an office
next to Carlos Horacio and they knew each
114
00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:54.159
other well and I met me also
called me and gave me that version later,
115
00:11:56.360 --> 00:12:01.120
when I started to find out things
and I told him, but Samuel,
116
00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:03.519
my good, I told you that
he fell, I don' t
117
00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:05.679
know if there he died, but
that same thing I saw is in him.
118
00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:13.200
When they do an interview with him, I don' t know if
119
00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:20.480
he has to talk to Dr Buitrago. Dr Buitrago does an interrogation and he
120
00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:24.360
says the same thing. Well,
I know he fell, of course from
121
00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:30.039
the leg wounds, but I don' t know if he died on the
122
00:12:30.039 --> 00:12:33.399
spot. Obviously, he couldn'
t testify to that, but how is
123
00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:41.279
this lady based only on that.
He doesn' t know not only Julia
124
00:12:41.960 --> 00:12:48.080
Navarrete, but many other people who
testified to seeing him go out alive and,
125
00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:54.039
apart from the videos, what happened. And there if I didn'
126
00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:58.799
t want to give a reflection for
the whole, is that when we were
127
00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:05.440
in the Inter- American Court proceedings
of the hearings in the city of Brasilia.
128
00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:11.960
I got a message from a PhD
student from a university here in the
129
00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:15.519
United States who needed to talk to
me. I thought it was academic.
130
00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:20.799
When I talk to him, he
tells me doctor and I was the one
131
00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:26.480
who took her husband out and tells
me that by the time he was a
132
00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:31.320
person he was doing his military service
in the Presidential Guard. And he tells
133
00:13:31.399 --> 00:13:35.840
me I' m the one who' s camouflaged the doctor. Well,
134
00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:41.600
I tried by all means to convince
him to make that statement to justice.
135
00:13:43.159 --> 00:13:48.480
He said we suffered a lot because
their problems were there, also because of
136
00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:54.879
the terrible war we have experienced in
Colombia and he did not want to make
137
00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:00.279
a statement that I believe was decisive. And then what is My reflection is
138
00:14:00.279 --> 00:14:05.399
that we all have to bring our
grain of sand so that there is justice
139
00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:09.360
and without justice there will never be
peace. And in that sense, I
140
00:14:09.399 --> 00:14:13.120
think it' s a responsibility.
We complain a lot about corruption, about
141
00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:20.399
corruption over the taking of illicit money, but it is also a form of
142
00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:24.639
corruption to not be a good citizen. And that is the reflection that I
143
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:31.919
want to leave you and that this
pain allows Colombians that the struggle for justice
144
00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:35.440
and peace, for the truth,
is something that we have to do with
145
00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:43.399
everyone and that we really need a
good administration of justice and we have to
146
00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:50.039
fight for a better administration of justice. I am always very sorry to disturb
147
00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:58.399
her and remove the pains that have
accumulated in these almost forty years. But
148
00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:05.399
I must ask you how, in
addition to the testimonies you mention, in
149
00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:15.519
addition to the videos that exist,
your husband was added and there are forensic
150
00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:22.200
studies that came to some conclusions from
those new autopsies. What did those forensic
151
00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:28.879
studies find? Doctor would arm good
then the reports are quantus de entes.
152
00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:33.159
I remember that, even with the
first necro that I arrived at the National
153
00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:41.600
University when I was called Angel Buitrago
who had to talk to me, I
154
00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:46.879
had the few papers that I had
and I immediately got a lot more evidence
155
00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:50.200
that I don' t know why
they had never counted them, because they
156
00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:52.840
waited twenty- two years to do
so. But, well, I went
157
00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:58.320
to the National University to ask a
fellow forensic anthropologist to help me read it
158
00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:03.279
and there he told me a tremendous
thing. He told me Ana Maria,
159
00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:08.399
this type of bullets the nine-
millimeter one, I didn' t have
160
00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:14.840
it. The m of nineteen.
Neither did the soldiers. This is the
161
00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:22.080
work of an officer and good And
then all the information that was corroborating has
162
00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:29.799
gone out and it was also stating
that not only does it come out alive
163
00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:36.559
for all the evidence that we have
mentioned, but it also suffered torture and
164
00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:40.080
death. That' s what they
told me. It was a very fast
165
00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:45.120
process, which is to say that' s the conclusion they came up with.
166
00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:48.840
And then, from there, when
I picked up the body, he
167
00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:56.960
probably had more injuries on his body, because it' s possible that they
168
00:16:56.039 --> 00:17:00.200
threw it on the first floor where
they make the uprising that I don'
169
00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:02.720
t know if it went at 4: 00 in the afternoon. It'
170
00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:10.240
s me who' d doubt it
was 4: 00 p m, but
171
00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:15.119
let' s say yes. Doctor, what are you going to do about
172
00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:19.680
this decision by the delegating prosecutor,
the Marlenor Borla Court? There are legal
173
00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:26.880
mechanisms to try to do something about
this. Yes, or my daughters and
174
00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:36.000
I have a representative, Dr VÃctor
Javier Velázquez, who is going to be
175
00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:48.640
the prosecution' s lawsuit for this
decision so that there will be a reversal
176
00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:56.559
now. In addition, I believe
that when the visits of the Inter-
177
00:17:57.720 --> 00:18:03.640
American Court go there would also be
a discussion, not to see a new
178
00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:08.200
discussion on the subject by which date
the visit of the Inter- American Court
179
00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:17.599
is scheduled. September 24th. If
I' m not wrong, well,
180
00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:22.160
it' s many years looking for
justice, almost forty years on a road
181
00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:26.400
planted with obstacles. After all this, you have little reason to keep hope.
182
00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:37.640
Dr Jain stopped believing in justice.
I don' t think I think
183
00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:41.799
I believe, but we all have
to believe. But, obviously, I
184
00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:45.400
have one more reason to believe in
justice, which is my husband. It
185
00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:49.480
' s a martin of justice.
Together with all the judges of the Court
186
00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:55.759
and the other people, the workers, we were left with justice. That
187
00:18:55.839 --> 00:19:00.079
is why I believe that with so
much ahincou families, perhaps the most humble,
188
00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:08.440
have fought the most for truth and
justice. There are times when silence
189
00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:14.880
only fits. I do not have
a word to add that I can more
190
00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:21.799
clearly or eloquently conclude this report,
this painful report on the road to impunity,
191
00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:26.480
in a case that should be in
Colombia. With your permission, I
192
00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:29.799
' m going to be on vacation. What' s left this week and
193
00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:33.039
next. This was today' s
Colonel report. Thank you very much.
1
00:00:00.480 --> 00:00:07.480
In the WU the report of Colonel, then, Daniel, let us recapitulate
2
00:00:07.559 --> 00:00:12.759
on a topic that you have studied
so many years, well, since the
3
00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:19.280
taking of the Palace of Justice,
and how interesting this turn that the investigation
4
00:00:19.320 --> 00:00:23.719
is giving for the truth in the
case of Judge Urán, What brings the
5
00:00:23.719 --> 00:00:28.079
report today, Daniel, Good July. This is the Colonel report and it
6
00:00:28.120 --> 00:00:34.920
is the story of a family that
has been seeking justice for thirty- eight
7
00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:40.799
years, eight months and twenty-
five days. Nearly forty years have passed
8
00:00:41.600 --> 00:00:45.759
since the day Carlos Horacio Urán,
Judge of Assistant to the Council of State,
9
00:00:46.039 --> 00:00:50.759
called to the University of the Andes
his wife, Professor Ana MarÃa VI
10
00:00:51.039 --> 00:00:55.640
of Cain, to tell him that
an unidentified group was taking blood and fire
11
00:00:55.679 --> 00:01:00.240
their place of work from the Palacio
Justicia in Plaza de BolÃvar in Bogotá.
12
00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:08.840
Despite the terrible circumstances, the teacher
told her four girls, her four daughters,
13
00:01:10.239 --> 00:01:15.319
that perhaps the father was alive and
leaving the building, taken into terrorist
14
00:01:15.400 --> 00:01:21.319
action by the then guerrillas of the
19th eMe and then taken back with criminal
15
00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:30.519
abuse of force by the military.
The dim hope became an immense joy when
16
00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:38.120
journalist Julia Navarrete told Ana MarÃa that
she had seen Judge Durán alive leaving the
17
00:01:38.159 --> 00:01:45.799
palace a fleeting image recorded by the
television news 24 hours records the moment when
18
00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:55.280
the man was wounded from the building
jumping on a leg. Ana Maria got
19
00:01:55.319 --> 00:02:00.000
the video fragment with great difficulty and
went to General Nelson MejÃa' s office.
20
00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:07.640
For those days, the deputy attorney
for the military forces, there was
21
00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:10.960
no response. Instead, the video
was lost in the hands of the military.
22
00:02:13.039 --> 00:02:17.080
On Friday, November 8, a
friend of the family found the body
23
00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:23.560
of Carlos Horacio Urán in the facilities
of the Institute of Legal Medicine in Bogotá.
24
00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:30.039
The body was not with the other
civilians killed, but in another room
25
00:02:30.759 --> 00:02:37.360
with the guerrillas killed by the army. On the contra take. They didn
26
00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:44.360
' t find his IDs. The
body was naked, smoked and with several
27
00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:50.240
wounds, one in one leg,
one in the chest and the one that
28
00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:57.159
killed him in the head made at
close range. Since the first autopsy,
29
00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:02.840
the cause of his death is determined
by the powder tattoo of the skull.
30
00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:15.280
The forensic report says Abrocomillas died from
a nine- millimeter projectile fired at his
31
00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:21.159
head to contact. So far the
quote, that is, the magistrate did
32
00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:25.360
not kill him in the crossfire of
long weapons, but a certain gun shot
33
00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:31.879
fired a few centimeters from his head. Soldiers and guerrillas were carrying rifles and
34
00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:37.479
machine guns that day. Guns weren' t the weapons used in that operation.
35
00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:43.439
After the nightmare of the father'
s death, another followed a while
36
00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:47.479
later the threats to the widow began
so that she would not find out more
37
00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:53.639
from the circumstances. She and her
four daughters had to leave Colombia. They
38
00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:59.199
went to the United States and then
to several countries in Europe. They rearmed
39
00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:05.439
their lives by speaking languages other than
Spanish and trying to forget the terrible loss
40
00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:13.039
of Dad. Twenty- two years
passed before anyone really cared about investigating what
41
00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:18.800
happened at the Palace of Justice.
That person was the female prosecutor delegated to
42
00:04:18.839 --> 00:04:25.959
the Supreme Court, Angela MarÃa Buitrago, today Minister of Justice. In two
43
00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:31.560
thousand and seven, Dr Buitrago ordered
the raid on the vaults of the Military
44
00:04:32.120 --> 00:04:36.319
Intelligence Service, the b DOS,
in the northern canton of Bogotá. There
45
00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:44.800
they found a document entitled Guerrillas decommissioned
into combat in the Palace of Justice.
46
00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:53.160
To the surprise of the judicial investigators, on the list are the names of
47
00:04:53.319 --> 00:04:59.120
the titular judge of the Supreme Court, Manuel Gaona Cruz and the Auxiliary Judge
48
00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:02.680
of the Council of State Carlos los
Horacio Urán. Also in the vaults of
49
00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:09.439
b two they found, as I
say, twenty- two years later,
50
00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:15.240
the wallet of magistrate Durán. There
he had his State Council credential, his
51
00:05:15.399 --> 00:05:19.839
ID card, his driver' s
license, a residue of an air space
52
00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:26.000
and his wife' s photo,
Ana MarÃa Videgai. All the documents were
53
00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:32.439
pierced by a bullet that went through
the wallet a few months later through a
54
00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:42.040
source of information whose identity I will
not reveal I never received the copy of
55
00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:46.560
the lost video two decades earlier.
At that time I worked as a news
56
00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:50.519
director one with the group of journalists
of the news and looking in archives of
57
00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:57.519
the media of the time, we
reconstructed the facts. We found two other
58
00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:04.279
videos showing the same scene of Urán
jumping on one leg as he left the
59
00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:11.199
palace. A copy of that recording
was found by the prosecution in the house
60
00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:16.160
of Colonel Luis Alfonso Plazas Vega,
commander of the School of Cavalry, the
61
00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:21.639
military unit that arrived at the Palace
of Justice with the tanks. I looked
62
00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:29.240
for Professor Ana Maria Bidegain, who
worked at a university in the United States
63
00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:35.560
and recognized her husband. In the
videos. He was also identified by Judge
64
00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:41.639
Nicolás Pájaro Peñaranda, who was for
hours in a bathroom in the Palace of
65
00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:47.680
Justice with dozens of hostages, including
Carlos Horacio Urán, and left the building
66
00:06:48.360 --> 00:06:55.399
destroyed a few seconds after him.
As the same videos record it, he
67
00:06:55.519 --> 00:07:00.079
also managed to identify it. He
remembered journalist gel N Castro, Caicedo,
68
00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:06.920
who was his friend and for twenty- two years had been looking for clues
69
00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:15.279
and investigating the circumstances of his death, with the investigations of prosecutor Angel Buitrago
70
00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:19.079
and also with the findings of that
journalistic investigation. Seven years later, in
71
00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:28.399
the year two thousand and fourteen,
the Inter- American Court concluded quotation marks.
72
00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:34.560
It can be established that Carlos Horacio
Urán was wounded in the left leg
73
00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:40.720
inside the Palace of Justice, but
left the palace alive in the custody of
74
00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:46.759
state agents and his departure was not
documented alive on the lists of survivors drawn
75
00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:54.920
up by the State. The Inter- American Court then continues. Subsequently,
76
00:07:55.319 --> 00:08:01.399
when he was in a state of
defencelessness caused by the other injuries, he
77
00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:07.079
was executed. His body was stripped
of clothes, washed and taken to the
78
00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:16.079
Institute of Legal Medicine. This court
established that Carlos Horacio Urán was executed while
79
00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:24.519
in the custody of state agents,
which constituted an extrajudicial execution. The Inter
80
00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:31.439
- American Court of Human Rights concludes, which orders the Colombian State in the
81
00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:39.240
same ruling to investigate and identify those
responsible for the crime. In a few
82
00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:43.759
weeks, a commission of the Inter- American Court will come to Colombia to
83
00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:48.039
find out the progress of that investigation. Unfortunately, they will face a setback.
84
00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:54.120
Last week, the prosecutor delegated to
the Marlennorhuela Court, came to a
85
00:08:54.159 --> 00:09:01.519
conclusion that contradicts years of investigations.
She says the auxiliary magistrate was killed in
86
00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:09.440
the hostages' bathroom I open quotation
marks. Dr Carlos Horacio Urán Rojas was
87
00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:13.399
one of the hostages who remained from
November 6 until the end of the assault
88
00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:18.440
in the bathroom on the 3rd floor. The documentation in this performance shows that
89
00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:22.960
he lost his life on November 7th
of a thousand nine hundred and eighty-
90
00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:28.960
five, at fifteen hours in accordance
with the Protocol of Necropsy. His body
91
00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:33.159
was raised inside the Palace of Justice
at 16 hours on the 7th of November,
92
00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:37.000
one thousand nine hundred and eighty-
five. The prosecutor does not take
93
00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:41.120
into account that the magistrate' s
body was not found in the bathroom in
94
00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:45.799
which the group of hostages of the
19th eMe terrorists were present, but two
95
00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:50.320
floors down in the inner square of
the Palace of Justice. How do you
96
00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:54.720
explain whether Necrops' protocol states that
he died at fifteen hours that at sixteen
97
00:09:54.039 --> 00:10:01.399
the body had been moved only to
the courtyard of the building. Dr Arjuela,
98
00:10:01.879 --> 00:10:05.960
who came to the case just a
few months ago, concludes that the
99
00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:13.039
videos that support the investigation are not
clear enough quotes. With the quality of
100
00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:16.440
the videos it was not possible to
perform the requested matching. The videos are
101
00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:24.960
not suitable for them. Close quotes. The decision enshrines impunity for the death
102
00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:31.600
of Judge Carlos Horacio uran A.
This time we greet Professor Ana MarÃa Bidegain,
103
00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:37.440
widow of Judge Carlos Ora Ciorán.
Good morning, Doctor, Good morning,
104
00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:45.919
Thank you, Paul Call me,
Doctor, how do you receive this
105
00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:50.399
decision from the prosecutor plus Noruela law. Okay. I think more than surprise.
106
00:10:52.519 --> 00:10:56.000
I get the feeling what you'
re looking for with this. I
107
00:10:56.039 --> 00:11:03.159
mean, he used him. It
was the first thing I thought, that
108
00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:13.480
is, to surprise us all really
shocked, because, as you well say,
109
00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:20.080
there is a wealth of information,
which was what allowed the Inter-
110
00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:26.919
American Court to see its ruling and
it is very particular to challenge an international
111
00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:33.720
court. On the other hand,
it strikes me because we return to the
112
00:11:33.799 --> 00:11:41.399
first story that I received a few
days after the event, Samuel Buitrago,
113
00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:48.159
who was very worked in an office
next to Carlos Horacio and they knew each
114
00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:54.159
other well and I met me also
called me and gave me that version later,
115
00:11:56.360 --> 00:12:01.120
when I started to find out things
and I told him, but Samuel,
116
00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:03.519
my good, I told you that
he fell, I don' t
117
00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:05.679
know if there he died, but
that same thing I saw is in him.
118
00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:13.200
When they do an interview with him, I don' t know if
119
00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:20.480
he has to talk to Dr Buitrago. Dr Buitrago does an interrogation and he
120
00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:24.360
says the same thing. Well,
I know he fell, of course from
121
00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:30.039
the leg wounds, but I don' t know if he died on the
122
00:12:30.039 --> 00:12:33.399
spot. Obviously, he couldn'
t testify to that, but how is
123
00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:41.279
this lady based only on that.
He doesn' t know not only Julia
124
00:12:41.960 --> 00:12:48.080
Navarrete, but many other people who
testified to seeing him go out alive and,
125
00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:54.039
apart from the videos, what happened. And there if I didn'
126
00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:58.799
t want to give a reflection for
the whole, is that when we were
127
00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:05.440
in the Inter- American Court proceedings
of the hearings in the city of Brasilia.
128
00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:11.960
I got a message from a PhD
student from a university here in the
129
00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:15.519
United States who needed to talk to
me. I thought it was academic.
130
00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:20.799
When I talk to him, he
tells me doctor and I was the one
131
00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:26.480
who took her husband out and tells
me that by the time he was a
132
00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:31.320
person he was doing his military service
in the Presidential Guard. And he tells
133
00:13:31.399 --> 00:13:35.840
me I' m the one who' s camouflaged the doctor. Well,
134
00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:41.600
I tried by all means to convince
him to make that statement to justice.
135
00:13:43.159 --> 00:13:48.480
He said we suffered a lot because
their problems were there, also because of
136
00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:54.879
the terrible war we have experienced in
Colombia and he did not want to make
137
00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:00.279
a statement that I believe was decisive. And then what is My reflection is
138
00:14:00.279 --> 00:14:05.399
that we all have to bring our
grain of sand so that there is justice
139
00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:09.360
and without justice there will never be
peace. And in that sense, I
140
00:14:09.399 --> 00:14:13.120
think it' s a responsibility.
We complain a lot about corruption, about
141
00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:20.399
corruption over the taking of illicit money, but it is also a form of
142
00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:24.639
corruption to not be a good citizen. And that is the reflection that I
143
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:31.919
want to leave you and that this
pain allows Colombians that the struggle for justice
144
00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:35.440
and peace, for the truth,
is something that we have to do with
145
00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:43.399
everyone and that we really need a
good administration of justice and we have to
146
00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:50.039
fight for a better administration of justice. I am always very sorry to disturb
147
00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:58.399
her and remove the pains that have
accumulated in these almost forty years. But
148
00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:05.399
I must ask you how, in
addition to the testimonies you mention, in
149
00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:15.519
addition to the videos that exist,
your husband was added and there are forensic
150
00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:22.200
studies that came to some conclusions from
those new autopsies. What did those forensic
151
00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:28.879
studies find? Doctor would arm good
then the reports are quantus de entes.
152
00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:33.159
I remember that, even with the
first necro that I arrived at the National
153
00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:41.600
University when I was called Angel Buitrago
who had to talk to me, I
154
00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:46.879
had the few papers that I had
and I immediately got a lot more evidence
155
00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:50.200
that I don' t know why
they had never counted them, because they
156
00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:52.840
waited twenty- two years to do
so. But, well, I went
157
00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:58.320
to the National University to ask a
fellow forensic anthropologist to help me read it
158
00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:03.279
and there he told me a tremendous
thing. He told me Ana Maria,
159
00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:08.399
this type of bullets the nine-
millimeter one, I didn' t have
160
00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:14.840
it. The m of nineteen.
Neither did the soldiers. This is the
161
00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:22.080
work of an officer and good And
then all the information that was corroborating has
162
00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:29.799
gone out and it was also stating
that not only does it come out alive
163
00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:36.559
for all the evidence that we have
mentioned, but it also suffered torture and
164
00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:40.080
death. That' s what they
told me. It was a very fast
165
00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:45.120
process, which is to say that' s the conclusion they came up with.
166
00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:48.840
And then, from there, when
I picked up the body, he
167
00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:56.960
probably had more injuries on his body, because it' s possible that they
168
00:16:56.039 --> 00:17:00.200
threw it on the first floor where
they make the uprising that I don'
169
00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:02.720
t know if it went at 4: 00 in the afternoon. It'
170
00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:10.240
s me who' d doubt it
was 4: 00 p m, but
171
00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:15.119
let' s say yes. Doctor, what are you going to do about
172
00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:19.680
this decision by the delegating prosecutor,
the Marlenor Borla Court? There are legal
173
00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:26.880
mechanisms to try to do something about
this. Yes, or my daughters and
174
00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:36.000
I have a representative, Dr VÃctor
Javier Velázquez, who is going to be
175
00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:48.640
the prosecution' s lawsuit for this
decision so that there will be a reversal
176
00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:56.559
now. In addition, I believe
that when the visits of the Inter-
177
00:17:57.720 --> 00:18:03.640
American Court go there would also be
a discussion, not to see a new
178
00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:08.200
discussion on the subject by which date
the visit of the Inter- American Court
179
00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:17.599
is scheduled. September 24th. If
I' m not wrong, well,
180
00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:22.160
it' s many years looking for
justice, almost forty years on a road
181
00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:26.400
planted with obstacles. After all this, you have little reason to keep hope.
182
00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:37.640
Dr Jain stopped believing in justice.
I don' t think I think
183
00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:41.799
I believe, but we all have
to believe. But, obviously, I
184
00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:45.400
have one more reason to believe in
justice, which is my husband. It
185
00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:49.480
' s a martin of justice.
Together with all the judges of the Court
186
00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:55.759
and the other people, the workers, we were left with justice. That
187
00:18:55.839 --> 00:19:00.079
is why I believe that with so
much ahincou families, perhaps the most humble,
188
00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:08.440
have fought the most for truth and
justice. There are times when silence
189
00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:14.880
only fits. I do not have
a word to add that I can more
190
00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:21.799
clearly or eloquently conclude this report,
this painful report on the road to impunity,
191
00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:26.480
in a case that should be in
Colombia. With your permission, I
192
00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:29.799
' m going to be on vacation. What' s left this week and
193
00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:33.039
next. This was today' s
Colonel report. Thank you very much.
