Salvatore Mancuso habla sobre empresarios y políticos

WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:06.480
In the WU, Colonel' s
report came, because the time had come,

2
00:00:06.599 --> 00:00:10.359
the Colonel' s report with a
very special guest and a menu,

3
00:00:10.919 --> 00:00:15.679
a number of subjects that the country
is waiting to hear. Daniel, welcome

4
00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:20.160
to your guest. Good morning,
July. This is the Colonel report.

5
00:00:20.600 --> 00:00:27.239
Salvatore Mancuso was the top leader of
Colombia' s so- called united self

6
00:00:27.839 --> 00:00:30.199
- defenses after the murder of Carlos
Castaño, ordered by his own brother.

7
00:00:31.199 --> 00:00:36.479
Unlike almost all other paramilitary leaders,
Mancuso is a man who received an exquisite

8
00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:41.719
education, attended the University of Pittsburgh
in the United States and damaged them in

9
00:00:41.759 --> 00:00:48.520
Bogotá. He attended the Monteria social
clubs and perhaps others in Bogotá, and

10
00:00:48.600 --> 00:00:55.960
knows when some good people decided to
associate with criminals within the logic of all

11
00:00:56.119 --> 00:01:02.240
- mancuso ballet. He returned to
Colombia after serving his sentence in the United

12
00:01:02.600 --> 00:01:06.359
States and having gone through a sort
of limbo, waiting to see if he

13
00:01:06.400 --> 00:01:11.799
was sent to Colombia or Italy,
a country whose nationality is to be the

14
00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:15.040
son of an Italian immigrant. He
came from one limbo and fell into another

15
00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:19.920
because although he has spent fifteen years
in prison there in the United States paying

16
00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:26.079
his sentence for drug trafficking, he
has pending matters in three jurisdictions, the

17
00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:30.680
ordinary one, Justice and Peace,
created as a special court for the paramilitaries

18
00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:34.920
and the Jep made for the guerrillas
of the Far members of the security forces

19
00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:40.239
and third parties responsible. The hep
was not initially designed to prosecute self-

20
00:01:40.599 --> 00:01:44.359
defense members like him, but now
it seems like it is. Within the

21
00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:49.519
legal gibberish in which we live.
His landing in Colombia, just over three

22
00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:53.719
months ago, has some terrified by
everything he knows and can say without a

23
00:01:55.599 --> 00:02:00.000
doubt there are many topics to talk
to him. That' s why I

24
00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:04.680
salu dains mos at this hour from
La Picota prison in Bogotá. Mr Mancuso,

25
00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:08.520
good morning, good morning, Daniel, a respectful greetings for you,

26
00:02:08.879 --> 00:02:13.960
for Julio, for Don at home, for all those at the table and

27
00:02:14.039 --> 00:02:23.639
their listeners and followers. Mr Mancuso, I would like us to start this

28
00:02:23.719 --> 00:02:28.159
conversation with a very topical subject.
A few hours ago, just over a

29
00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:34.280
day ago, she was condemned civilianly
in the United States, multinational Bananera Chiquita

30
00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:39.719
Brands for the funding she gave you
paramilitaries. U S justice ordered the Bananera

31
00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:46.080
to pay$ 33 3 million to
eight families, but the outstanding cases are

32
00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:52.960
more than six zero and compensation could
exceed$ 16 trillion. Please tell us

33
00:02:53.039 --> 00:02:59.960
what it was like that Chiquita paid
you as Chiquita and your subsidiaries as Gracias.

34
00:03:02.360 --> 00:03:05.960
That' s very kind of you. That question is very important at

35
00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:10.680
this historic moment in the country.
Before, however, I would like to

36
00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:15.680
clarify that I returned to the country
not because I was in a legal limbo.

37
00:03:15.800 --> 00:03:20.879
I could wait and leave for Italy
or stay even in America. However,

38
00:03:21.319 --> 00:03:27.319
President Dr Gustavo Petro invited me to
be peace manager. I went back

39
00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:31.879
to the country because I want to
honor that designation you make me. President,

40
00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:37.319
I have a debt of honor to
the victims that I will pay off

41
00:03:37.400 --> 00:03:42.000
in the rest of my life and
I wanted to come to Colombia to help

42
00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:46.560
with peace. There was a time
when I realized that our action was similar

43
00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:52.400
to that of the enemy we were
fighting in the guerrillas and I proposed to

44
00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:55.599
the Brown commanders that we start a
peace process. And then, when we

45
00:03:55.599 --> 00:04:02.360
start the free versions, you will
remember a righteous commander who still had an

46
00:04:02.599 --> 00:04:08.240
altivez and who was giving free versions. I still felt at the time that

47
00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:12.919
I had been a self- defense
commander, but when I saw the pain

48
00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:15.920
of the victims, I looked into
their eyes to lie to suffering. I

49
00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:20.800
heard the explanation for the impressive damage
we caused him. Many of the media

50
00:04:20.839 --> 00:04:26.000
said that I became a wretch and
indeed, I couldn' t stand the

51
00:04:26.040 --> 00:04:31.639
damage, although I wanted to retain
it for the pain I felt duty and

52
00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:35.720
feel that pain, which was minimal
to what the victims have felt and from

53
00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:43.160
that moment I promised that I would
have to work for the rest of my

54
00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:46.279
life, because these situations of tragedy
and barbarism do not recur. That is

55
00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:50.519
why I returned to the country and
because I have nothing to do with the

56
00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:54.800
justice of Colombia, the world or
any country in the world. I paid

57
00:04:54.879 --> 00:05:00.439
him everything Colombian justice would tell him
and I deserve freedom. In addition,

58
00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:04.560
I am appointed a peace historian who
is asked to lift the insurance measures that

59
00:05:04.600 --> 00:05:09.839
I can see in my case and
have not been lifted I am being detained

60
00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:15.240
illegally and arbitrarily. At this moment
justice has become politicized in my case and

61
00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:19.959
that situation has a justification. They
do not want me to go free,

62
00:05:20.439 --> 00:05:26.560
they do not want me to exercise
the stories of peace so that I can

63
00:05:26.759 --> 00:05:33.040
help the country, so that it
can help on the agenda of non-

64
00:05:34.120 --> 00:05:42.439
rebels and can advance this government serious
negotiations that lead to the dismantling of these

65
00:05:42.519 --> 00:05:45.319
illegal structures and here the country already
passes that no more victims are produced.

66
00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:49.879
And that situation is precisely so that
this is not an attack on me,

67
00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:56.279
nor is it an attack on the
Government of President Petro, of course,

68
00:05:56.800 --> 00:05:59.600
that they attack, but it is
a direct attack on the country, on

69
00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:03.680
the peace of the country, on
the victims who continue to be revictimized and

70
00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:12.319
it is a terrible situation, in
a barbarous manner that prevents us when the

71
00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:15.800
commitments precisely to what we are called
to enter to help with the peace of

72
00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:17.879
the country, from being prevented from
doing so. And besides, I have

73
00:06:18.120 --> 00:06:23.480
the right to freedom by the two
transitional justice systems. But if they do

74
00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:30.079
not comply with me, what is
the message being sent to these rearmed groups

75
00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:35.160
to demobilize to submit to one of
those two justice systems and neither of the

76
00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:42.199
two accomplices. That' s why
I' m analyzing and studying with my

77
00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:46.639
lawyers the possibility of giving up one
or the two transitional justice systems because in

78
00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:49.839
my case they haven' t complied
and this is barbaric. What is the

79
00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:55.800
message sent to these armed groups with
which this Government is pursuing processes and wants

80
00:06:55.839 --> 00:07:00.959
to advance with other groups. In
fact, I have received messages from many

81
00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:03.800
of them, from some not all, who want to move forward in that

82
00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:08.399
process. There are even dialogues already
ready to move forward with the Government,

83
00:07:08.519 --> 00:07:11.920
with the Office of the High Commissioner
for Peace, which are to be established

84
00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:15.199
promptly. And that is a situation
that we urgently need to resolve, because

85
00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:19.160
if the justice system, the system
of closing justice, to which they are

86
00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:24.319
going to submit, fails and this
is a huge barbarity, because that is

87
00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:29.040
non- compliance with legal insecurities.
They led to the murder of five zero

88
00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:32.160
people from the self- defence forces
who killed after the demobilization. That subject

89
00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:38.079
led them to reassemble. They are
then inviting them to continue in the mountains,

90
00:07:38.439 --> 00:07:43.000
to continue in the cities to continue
armed non- rebel groups and even

91
00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:46.319
the other rebel groups, because the
rifle bullet that comes out regardless of the

92
00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:54.040
rifle that shoots it produces victims regardless
of who shoots it. Then that issue

93
00:07:54.560 --> 00:07:58.040
can' t go on like that. Now the little girl thing. That

94
00:07:58.040 --> 00:08:03.199
' s a good one. There' s the first news. We have

95
00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:09.079
first news. With this. Salvatore
Mancuso is telling us that he is thinking

96
00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:13.560
of giving up one of the two
jurisdictions, or Justice and Peace or the

97
00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:20.879
GEB because he feels that they have
not met either. I would like to

98
00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:26.480
return to that subject later, but
I would like to ask you about the

99
00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:31.519
issue of Chiquita' s financing,
which was not just about money. They

100
00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:35.360
used an area in a special way
granted to them by the government of the

101
00:08:35.399 --> 00:08:41.000
time to establish a port in Sungo
in the Uraba, where 3, 000

102
00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:48.879
rifles arrived for paramilitary groups, rifles
that were used in massacres in several that

103
00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:54.879
are proven to have caused the displacement
of thousands of people. Mr Mancuso Chiquita

104
00:08:54.960 --> 00:09:01.519
has said in the U S courts
that they have agreed not for extortion,

105
00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:07.200
that you made them give that money
with a rifle aimed at them and that

106
00:09:07.240 --> 00:09:09.840
they would not really have wanted to
be involved in crimes. That' s

107
00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:16.559
true. That Chiquita thing is a
resounding success for the country, as I

108
00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:20.720
was saying a moment ago, which
is a success for the victims. To

109
00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:24.159
the extent that it is recognized that
the moneys that entered the armed conflict,

110
00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:31.440
regardless of the actor to whom the
resources had been given, because Chiquita gave

111
00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:35.000
resources to the Lepel guerrillas and the
fart in the banana zone and also to

112
00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:41.039
the self- defence. They were
resources that were used and that caused enormous

113
00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:48.000
damage, a humanitarian tragedy in Colombia
and that were used by the actors of

114
00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:52.120
the conflict to make war. So, Chiquito Baran gave money to the self

115
00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:56.000
- defense. It wasn' t
with a rifle in his head. They

116
00:09:56.039 --> 00:09:58.360
came from handing over resources to the
guerrillas. When we met with them,

117
00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:05.080
Commander Carlos Castaño in person and other
commanders and thus contributed three cents per box

118
00:10:05.159 --> 00:10:09.000
of exported bananas. I have already
said that, I was even a witness

119
00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:18.159
in that trial in the United States, which advanced against Chiquita Bran, one

120
00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:24.399
of the commanders of the paramilitaries who
was present and articulating this entire association with

121
00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:28.440
Chiquita is Raúl Hasbon who is known
with the alias of Pedro Bonito. He

122
00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:35.279
said that all this was in the
knowledge of who was the Secretary of Government

123
00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:39.840
of the Department of Antioch, of
the Government of Antiok at that time,

124
00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:46.600
Pedro Juan Moreno. You had contacts
with Pedro Juan Moreno. Yes, I

125
00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:50.399
had contacts with Pedro Amoreno, like
many self- defense commanders, of course

126
00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:56.120
I did. You can remind us, Mr Mancuso, who was the Governor

127
00:10:56.120 --> 00:11:01.600
of Antioch when Pedro Juan Moreno Villa
was the Secretary of Government. It was

128
00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:09.759
former President Alvaroura and Bebelis. He
was also aware of this funding to the

129
00:11:09.799 --> 00:11:18.320
paramilitaries. Well, I don'
t know if I was in from this

130
00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:20.360
funding to self- defense. What
I know is that Pedro Juan was the

131
00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:28.000
right hand of the Governor of Anchocha
for that moment. You have said that

132
00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:33.879
the governor of that time,Álvaro
Urío de Belez, was aware of the

133
00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:39.919
massacre of the ring of this procedure
in the Ituango area, which was a

134
00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:46.399
criminal operation that caused dozens of deaths, also executed in a supremely cruel way.

135
00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:52.799
Why do you say that Governor Alvaro
Uribe knew how to look at Mr

136
00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:56.759
Pedro Juan Moreno and we have to
remember the historical context of the country.

137
00:11:56.759 --> 00:12:03.600
By that time, we had a
state military forces cornered by the guerrillas,

138
00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:11.679
guerrilla forces strengthened by the money of
drug trafficking, with impressive weaponry for that

139
00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:16.720
moment, with a military capacity and
enormous mobilization, were able to gather in

140
00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:22.000
that block José María Córdoba, which
operated in that region about 1, 800,

141
00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:28.320
000 men within a few hours and
its action was tremendous in that area.

142
00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:31.559
At that time there were what they
called miraculous fishing, which were massive

143
00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:37.919
hijackings that they made between the roads
of the country, in this specific case,

144
00:12:37.080 --> 00:12:41.519
between Montería and Medellino, Medilin and
Montería, and for the area of

145
00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:45.360
the Aro and this entire area of
the Farm and this region. They said

146
00:12:45.639 --> 00:12:50.559
that there they had concentration camps for
barbarians and guerrillas and that it was where

147
00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:58.559
they had the kidnapped who held back
from these miraculous plagues. Pedro Juan Mor

148
00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:03.279
does not meet with Comandante Carlos Browno
with a thousand people and asks us to

149
00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:09.240
support the military forces in an operation
to rescue those kidnapped and to expel the

150
00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:15.480
guerrillas from that area, to push
them towards the high mountain and the rear

151
00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:20.200
areas, where there was not much
population, where they were away from the

152
00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:28.559
urban populations. That way we started
to organize the operation that finally took time

153
00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:35.679
afterwards and indeed, it was a
barbarity to get to an area that is

154
00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:43.000
what is really configured in that action. A state crime. It is when

155
00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:48.080
we go with a list that the
army delivers to us the brigade at that

156
00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:56.559
moment and there are pointed out supposed
guerrillas, militiamen, financial collaborators of the

157
00:13:56.679 --> 00:14:01.480
guerrillas and with that list in hand
we assassinate those people in that ras configurating

158
00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:05.639
what is a state crime of the
hand of the State. And it was

159
00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:11.919
this situation that Mr Pedro Juan Moreno
asked us to go and advance those armaments

160
00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:16.600
that were used in those violent actions
and in others in the country. Many

161
00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:22.080
entered the port of Sumungo, as
you said earlier. Three thousand rifles entered

162
00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:26.519
on one side, but the other
was three thousand six hundred rifles and part

163
00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:31.399
of them were unloaded in the Gulf
of Uraba in the port of Chiquita brand

164
00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:37.360
of Zongo, perfect. That'
s how you told us they supplied the

165
00:14:37.399 --> 00:14:43.559
list to the military. Who was
the military commander of the area when you

166
00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:50.000
received that list of people who should
be killed the military commander of the self

167
00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:56.799
- defence or army, the army
commander, previously in that area of General

168
00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:01.840
Mano Salva And after I think by
that time, because General Monos Salva'

169
00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:05.159
s died, entered, I believe
General Los Pinas, who became General Commander

170
00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:18.159
of the military forces. Mr Mancuso, you say there were several helicopters involved

171
00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:24.960
in this massacre, one carrying you
to yourself, one that was an official

172
00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:33.799
helicopter. Which entity belonged to that
helicopter. Look I was in a helicopter

173
00:15:33.879 --> 00:15:37.360
between, like, two or three
times, I don' t remember exactly

174
00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:41.159
at this time, but between several
times, to carry ammunition, to take

175
00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:46.840
out wounded dead, to carry relays
of the self- defenses, there was

176
00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:52.919
also the helicopter of the Governorate of
Antioquia, overflying the area and was helicopter

177
00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:58.480
of the army and the guerrilla helicopter
also in the area at that time,

178
00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:02.039
that is, you confirm that a
helicopter of the governor. The former President

179
00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:06.279
of the Baruribe has been saying for
years that that is not true. You

180
00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:11.799
confirm that a governor' s helicopter
was involved in that massacre. Well,

181
00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:15.720
the helicopter on the bolon. In
fact, the governor’ s helicopter was

182
00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:19.240
on several occasions in the self-
defense camps. On it. On some

183
00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:26.240
occasions they reached humanitarian commissions and Pedro
Juan Moreno arrived. There were several occasions

184
00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:32.320
when a helicopter landed in self-
defence camps in the Uraba region. One

185
00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:37.120
thing is a humanitarian mission, and
another is the use of an official helicopter

186
00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:45.440
to facilitate the killing of civilians.
What was the case with the governor'

187
00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:52.279
s helicopter in the massacre flew over
the area where we were in combat in

188
00:16:52.519 --> 00:17:00.000
advance of that terrible operation. You
have also stated that you have met several

189
00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:03.480
times with former President Alvaro Uribe,
things he denies. What' s more,

190
00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:10.440
he published some triunes saying this bandit
of mancuso savers wants to change the

191
00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:15.359
version about the hoop to justify the
benefit of the malicious creation of the hep

192
00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:21.680
park' s hinge. You met
or did not meet withÁlvaro Uribe on

193
00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:27.559
what occasions and where. I met
him several times with Governor Ulibe for that

194
00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:36.759
time. In fact, it is
his right to defend himself and to say

195
00:17:36.759 --> 00:17:41.480
what he considers to be inconvenient,
but the truths are absolutely forceful. And

196
00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:45.000
I went with what I said by
Colonel Raúl Suárez, who was commander of

197
00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:48.440
the police of Cordoba. We found
ourselves in a race that everyone could see

198
00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:52.480
of horses that we did, that
ran a mare of mine, even at

199
00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:56.799
that time it was called the gringa, a mare of medium- yellow Roman

200
00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:03.400
colour is the Roman color those who
do not know the color and even won

201
00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:08.119
against a horse of a cousin of
him, so we have met on several

202
00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:15.000
occasions, of course, neighbor and
we have met in commercial places of mountainry

203
00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:18.920
some things i is a casual encounter, as he admits that perhaps he saw

204
00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:26.079
it before you were involved with the
so- called self- defenses, that

205
00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:27.480
greeted him from far away, but
others met. He says you never went

206
00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:33.559
to a farm on him, that' s not true. You are prepared

207
00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:38.039
for a face- to- face
discussion with Mr President of the Balurio,

208
00:18:38.839 --> 00:18:45.079
to support what you have said.
He can say what he sees fit for

209
00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:51.480
his defense. These issues specifically should
not be politicized, because they influence decision

210
00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:56.799
- making in justice. I have
told these issues to transitional justice. They

211
00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:00.200
will make the decisions of the case. But the idea here is not to

212
00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:06.519
put President Uribe in jail. He
was our partner in the war and today

213
00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:11.680
I invite him to be a partner
in peace. I don' t think

214
00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:15.000
anyone wins anything from people getting into
jail. The prison is a crime university,

215
00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:18.799
the Farsa guerrillas demobilized and went to
the Congress of the Republic. Why

216
00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:22.839
do you have to go to jail
that pays a restorative penalty like the one

217
00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:29.559
Mr Laforit is paying right now?
La Foria is carrying out a mission of

218
00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:33.079
peace manager, excellent mission, I
am told, and it is bringing peace

219
00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:37.680
to the country. So I think
the important thing in this matter is that

220
00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:44.400
those of us who had responsibilities in
the conflict, even more so who were

221
00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:49.240
allies of self- defense in this
absurd war that, regardless of who won

222
00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:53.039
it militarily, we all lost it, lost the whole country, the victims,

223
00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:57.920
what we generated and what we gained
from them. So, that situation,

224
00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:06.400
I think, we need to re- evaluate it and observe exactly that

225
00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:11.119
Mr Uribe can contribute a lot more
to the country, because he still has

226
00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:15.079
a great political influence on the peace
of this country, on a restorative sanction,

227
00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:18.359
on the building of peace among all
of us. We cannot continue to

228
00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:22.319
live from war and violence and draw
political and economic returns, from conflict,

229
00:20:22.599 --> 00:20:26.720
from the victims of the dead.
This we have to finish, and that

230
00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:29.440
' s why I' m back
in the country. That is why it

231
00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:33.640
is so important that I can exercise
the stories of peace and that I can

232
00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:37.440
be at liberty. From here it
is impossible to move forward in the way

233
00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:41.279
that we have to move forward.
It strikes me that you qualify as restorative

234
00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:47.519
management. What Mr President of Fedegan, José Feliz, Lafori is doing in

235
00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:52.519
the peace process with the Eln I
want to ask him what was the role

236
00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:59.839
of José Félix Aforie in the election
of Mario Iguaran as Attorney General of the

237
00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:06.920
Nation and what was the participation of
the self- defense groups in that election

238
00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:12.000
of the Attorney General. Well,
look, I' m going back to

239
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:18.599
what you say. Mr Lafor is
playing an excellent role for the country and

240
00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:22.000
for peace as a peace manager in
the negotiations with the ELNE, and that

241
00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:29.839
seems to me to be absolutely rescueable
and that is what would invite all those

242
00:21:29.960 --> 00:21:37.599
of us who had certain types of
responsibilities, directly or indirectly, in the

243
00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:41.720
armed conflict to move forward. It' s the way peace is made in

244
00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:45.920
the country and I really applaud it. As for the issue of Mario Guaran

245
00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:51.519
' s election I was demobilized by
that time. To me they proposed that

246
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:57.240
if I could help tip the balance
in favor of Mr Mario Barán, who

247
00:21:57.519 --> 00:22:04.759
by that time was or had been
Deputy Minister of Justice. Even that reason

248
00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:15.720
the feminist, Dr. Sabas Pretel
de la Vega, and the one who

249
00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:25.319
was most chosen to win it to
be appointed by the Supreme Court of Justice

250
00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:30.880
Attorney General of the Nation was Mr
Jorge Pretel. But this situation changed as

251
00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:40.160
different people and self- defense commanders
were touched to tip that balance and to

252
00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:45.640
elect Mr Mari Guarán as Attorney General. Why I had designed it. He

253
00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:49.839
had been the author of the law
nine thousand seven five out of two thousand

254
00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:56.000
five and could better implement it.
Moreover, the reason was that it was

255
00:22:56.039 --> 00:23:02.160
supposedly a request made directly by the
President of the Republic of u i e

256
00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:07.920
you received that as a reason from
the President of the Republic and from the

257
00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:12.119
same hon of that moment. I
told you that if you received this as

258
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:17.000
a reason from the President of the
Republic and the Minister of the Interior at

259
00:23:18.039 --> 00:23:25.519
that time, correct he too would
like to ask you about the participation of

260
00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:30.440
Belardo de las Priellas in this and, in general, his relationship with the

261
00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:37.079
lawyer of the Arch of Fieras.
Well, Abelardo is a friend known from

262
00:23:38.119 --> 00:23:42.839
young logic, I am older he
Abelardo is very friend, a very deep,

263
00:23:44.119 --> 00:23:48.559
very big relationship with Doctor Mario Huaran
for that time, since before he

264
00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:52.799
was a pisco, when he was
Attorney General, they were close friends.

265
00:23:53.799 --> 00:24:00.480
They had great ancestry over each other. And that' s basically what I

266
00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:07.680
know about Abelardo. He was with
Fipaz in the Santa federalito area with several

267
00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:12.960
universities in the country, with several
students from those universities. When this process

268
00:24:14.039 --> 00:24:22.240
of negotiation with the Government of President
Oribe was taking place, this Fipaz foundation,

269
00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:26.480
to which I belonged at the time
of the art of the pieces,

270
00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:30.200
I am telling you, because he
was not a well- known lawyer,

271
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:33.039
but rather they knew him there because
he had been the singer of Ballenato Iván

272
00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:38.079
Villazón' s group. This Pipaz
foundation appears to be the beneficiary of contributions

273
00:24:38.119 --> 00:24:44.720
from a common fund of the paramilitary
chiefs, which was led by Jairo Andrés

274
00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:48.680
Sangarita, Commander Andrés, and which, among other things, financed his trip

275
00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:55.880
to Bogotá to speak in Congress.
You know how that FIFAZ Foundation funding worked,

276
00:24:56.359 --> 00:25:02.680
from which the Art of the pieces
lawyer stood apart. I don'

277
00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:10.000
t know how FIPAZ worked at the
time, because Ernesto Báez, Commander Ernesto

278
00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:14.279
Baez, handled it. Yes,
all the commanders made a contribution to the

279
00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:18.319
management of the realito zone when we
started these negotiations with the Durini government,

280
00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:26.000
and those resources were handled by Commander
Andrés. But I don' t know

281
00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:30.240
exactly how Fipadas worked and the resources
that got there good July. Please,

282
00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:37.400
you never just asked a person who
knows this hidden piece of Colombian history as

283
00:25:37.480 --> 00:25:44.599
Salvator and Mancuso. But please,
I would like you also to have the

284
00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:48.799
opportunity to speak to him, for
Daniel is very generous. Thank you very

285
00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:53.319
much, be man Cussio. Good
morning. I' d like to go

286
00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:59.000
to an episode that would be good
to illustrate how you lived it. It

287
00:25:59.079 --> 00:26:04.880
turns out that you were in a
process of justice and peace, that you

288
00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:15.519
were all together in real life,
and one morning President Uribe made the decision

289
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:22.200
to extradite you because information that reached
President Uribe, president of the time,

290
00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:27.160
indicated that you continued to commit crimes
according to the information that came to him,

291
00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:30.359
and that is why I extradite you. And it was a surprise to

292
00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:37.519
all of you. Tell us,
please, how was that moment, Julio

293
00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:41.519
Güero Days. I love to say
hello. Well, I' m going

294
00:26:41.559 --> 00:26:49.240
to contextualize it a little bit about
it. It was not a real Santa

295
00:26:49.319 --> 00:26:56.720
Fede, we were already in justice
and peace demobilized, we were in Itawi

296
00:26:56.799 --> 00:27:03.559
prison, some others in Barranquilla,
others in Bogotá. And by that time

297
00:27:04.039 --> 00:27:12.599
PresidentÁlvaro Uribe had been asked to
sign the agreements, to endorse the agreements

298
00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:18.319
that had actually been made between the
self- defence forces and the national government.

299
00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:26.319
In fact, Vicente Castaño had sent
him reason, because the Commissioner of

300
00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:30.440
Peace sent him a reason. Vincent
is told to surrender that, please,

301
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:34.599
he helped in the demobilization, but
that he did not have a good presentation

302
00:27:34.680 --> 00:27:41.359
that he was still in illegality.
When we had all given ourselves up.

303
00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:45.319
Vicente told him the problem is that
the government has complied, as it has

304
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:48.079
been failing in all the negotiations that
have been advanced throughout history and that is

305
00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:52.960
why many groups, both guerrillas and
self- defense groups, have been rearmed.

306
00:27:52.599 --> 00:28:00.359
If you undertake to sign the agreements
that we advance in the negotiation of

307
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:06.720
realites and we do so before international
guarantors and the Catholic Church, I surrender

308
00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:10.640
immediately. Let' s go get
those grand. We bring him in,

309
00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:14.839
we get to a place where I
tell you, we meet, we sign

310
00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:17.119
him, and I' m going
with you in detention wherever you want.

311
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:21.440
But if the agreements are not signed, I will not surrender, because you

312
00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:26.400
are failing us and I will not
submit to a breach. If that'

313
00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:33.759
s the breakfast you expect for lunch. That' s when Mr Self-

314
00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:41.920
commissioned with the national government, they
organized the death of Vicente Castal and extradited

315
00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:47.480
us to the others. In that
way, when we were touching truths to

316
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:52.119
prevent us from rebuilding those truths,
because let us remember that one of the

317
00:28:52.200 --> 00:29:00.200
raalito agreements was that each of the
commanders would concentrate on some agricultural penal colonies

318
00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:07.720
with whom our subordinate men and women
had been, in order to enter to

319
00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:12.799
rebuild these truths. But when we
began to rebuild the truths, we began

320
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:19.359
to move the former commanders and the
demobilized self- defenses from prison to prison

321
00:29:19.400 --> 00:29:25.720
so that we would not find them
and tell those truths. When we begin

322
00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:30.200
to talk about all these truths,
which involves cousins President Turibe, his Praetorian

323
00:29:30.319 --> 00:29:37.799
circle and they begin to stop this
pile of congressmen immediately we are straddling.

324
00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:47.200
I am sending President Uribe a letter, a right of petition, and I

325
00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:55.480
ask him why he treated me,
what agreement I broke, what crimes I

326
00:29:55.599 --> 00:29:57.880
committed and he answered my right of
petition. I have copies. I will

327
00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:03.000
bring it to you with my lawyer, who says that he did not translate

328
00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:07.359
me because I had failed to comply
with the agreements we reached with the Government

329
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:15.079
at the negotiating table or because I
would have kept on delining that the month

330
00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:18.799
traded with a discretionary action by him
as the clearest President, does not sing

331
00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:22.519
a rooster on this subject. That
is to say, we were extradited to

332
00:30:22.599 --> 00:30:29.359
silence ourselves and to violate the agreements
that were advanced with us in the self

333
00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:32.359
- defenses Sir Mancos. You just
said something of the greatest gravity is that

334
00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:40.319
we believed that the death of Vicente
Castaño was an internal fight of groups outside

335
00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:48.079
the law. I understood you very
well You told us that Vicente Castaño was

336
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:56.079
killed by a government conspiracy led by
Commissioner Restrepo Correct. This is a terrible

337
00:30:56.279 --> 00:31:04.559
situation where there is a conspiracy by
the government itself to assassinate Vicente Castaño.

338
00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:12.000
And the tragedy of this is that
this situation of lack of legal certainty,

339
00:31:12.119 --> 00:31:18.079
of justice, of signing the non- compliance agreements, continues to be repeated.

340
00:31:19.240 --> 00:31:22.160
How is it possible that, in
my particular case, for example,

341
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:27.519
that it is a nefarious message that
is sent to all these armed actors of

342
00:31:27.559 --> 00:31:32.680
the current conflict, they are called
course that has been fulfilled, they do

343
00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:34.200
not comply with it and that neither
of the two transitional justice systems fulfills.

344
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:38.559
I have the right to freedom in
both. Both were asked to appoint me

345
00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:45.640
peace manager and not to appoint me. The shortcomings of the resolution that appointed

346
00:31:45.640 --> 00:31:48.400
me from the peace manager and did
not appoint me were remedied. What'

347
00:31:48.440 --> 00:31:51.880
s going to happen to them.
What is the message that is being sent

348
00:31:52.039 --> 00:31:55.200
to you. But, gentlemen,
you are demobilizing and you are going to

349
00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:56.880
be able to go to jail.
We will fail you and the agreements will

350
00:31:56.920 --> 00:32:01.960
never be brought forward as they have
been agreed in that, Mr Mancuso.

351
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:06.559
But, but I' m still
in line with the July question. Let

352
00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:14.720
' s go to the time and
place of that conspiracy Who specifically gives you

353
00:32:14.759 --> 00:32:20.519
the order to murder Vicente Castaño?
When and where to discuss details of this

354
00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:28.119
alleged government conspiracy. Then to kill
Castaño. I get a fat letter from

355
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:38.799
Pepe who went here. He was
kidnapped and tied up by the family to

356
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:43.640
give up Vicente Castaño and told me
that he was tied to his wife,

357
00:32:44.039 --> 00:32:47.960
to his sons, to his parents, to his daughters and through him they

358
00:32:49.079 --> 00:32:52.839
arrived where another person who was the
only one who could enter a car to

359
00:32:52.960 --> 00:33:00.359
where Vicente Castaño was, on a
farm near the Ciénaga de Apel. They

360
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:09.839
went in there and when Vincent saw
other cars coming in, he shot him.

361
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:16.839
Those who went there were members of
the Tijin, other demobilized members of

362
00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:24.000
self- defence who were acting on
the request of the national government made by

363
00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:32.240
Commissioner Luis Carlos Restrepo and that is
when Vicente dies, say that he himself

364
00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:36.319
shot himself in the head, in
a bathroom, when he felt that he

365
00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:42.960
had no escape from the action of
this joint group among members of the police

366
00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:47.559
and mobilized, Mr Esa, Mr
Mancuso, and let us go to the

367
00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:51.920
supposed responsibility of Luis Carlos Restrepo,
because, because that is a very serious

368
00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:55.680
point. It' s the mark
of a homicide. What evidence, what

369
00:33:55.759 --> 00:34:00.720
details do you have that it was
Mr Resta Po who gave the order for

370
00:34:01.480 --> 00:34:08.159
the murder of Vicente Castaño, what
evidence there is or what details there are

371
00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:14.760
of that so- called order.
I have the letter that Gordo Pepe gave

372
00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:21.480
me for that time, with the
remarks he made about this situation, Mr

373
00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:29.679
Mancuso, the order of this conspiracy
that you mention starts from Luis Carlos restrepo,

374
00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:34.079
or you have information that higher level
officials within the government used only common

375
00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:43.159
restrepo emissary. Well, from now
on I don' t know anything more

376
00:34:43.239 --> 00:34:45.360
about those who were most involved in
the subject. CE that came to me

377
00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:51.760
in a letter of fist and letter
from Gordo Pepe Manuscript, where it explains

378
00:34:51.800 --> 00:34:58.800
to me the events that happened,
the participation that he had linked in these

379
00:34:58.840 --> 00:35:00.320
actions and the points that he makes
to the responsible of the s s s.

380
00:35:00.440 --> 00:35:04.280
S. Yes, Mr Mancuso,
I want to ask you about an

381
00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:07.880
episode with the former Foreign Minister,
Alvaro Leiva, because at the time,

382
00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:09.719
that is, last year, in
November, he stabbed the heb saying that

383
00:35:09.719 --> 00:35:14.719
he was preventing and that it was
ushering in the story of the truth and

384
00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:17.880
putting a gag and a bandage on
the story, condemning Colombia would Latin of

385
00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:23.360
the lie. And he said this
because a hearing was suspended in which Carlos

386
00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:29.000
Mario Jiménez, alias Macaco, was
to be heard, and he has been

387
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:30.960
making those efforts so that he can
enter the HEAP and have been heard.

388
00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:36.239
And I want to ask you if
you agree with that acceptance of Macaco before

389
00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:40.079
the HEAP and to speak there in
that court. Of course I agree with

390
00:35:40.119 --> 00:35:47.400
the acceptance of a former Commander like
Carlos Mario Jiméneas, to whom Macaco tells,

391
00:35:47.639 --> 00:35:53.639
because he is, according to the
commander who had a lot of power

392
00:35:53.639 --> 00:35:58.239
in self- defense, had a
lot of influence on self- defense.

393
00:35:58.840 --> 00:36:05.840
It is committed at this time to
making progress in helping to build peace.

394
00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:09.880
He is one of the commanders,
like many of the others we are working

395
00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:15.920
on, because these situations of barbarism
and tragedy are no longer repeated. He

396
00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:20.360
' s got a lot of knowledge, he' s got a lot to

397
00:36:20.360 --> 00:36:25.719
contribute. He is a person who
I hope will be received, just like

398
00:36:25.880 --> 00:36:34.320
other commanders like HH, like Mr
Ramón Mojana, like the Angulos who took

399
00:36:34.360 --> 00:36:37.440
responsibility for the groups that operated in
the Aroe, in Ituango Farm. They

400
00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:43.199
are people who would contribute enormously and
I tell you why. Because we cannot

401
00:36:43.400 --> 00:36:50.480
fragment the truth into three systems of
justice, ordinary justice, justice and peace,

402
00:36:50.599 --> 00:36:55.159
the GEP because that fragmentation of justice
does not mean that the responsibility for

403
00:36:55.400 --> 00:37:02.719
these acts goes unpunished, that the
ends cannot be tied in order to reach

404
00:37:04.280 --> 00:37:09.639
the conclusions that it requires to reach
a court of law and this situation becomes

405
00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:19.039
something unending. This issue of the
closing court is very important for us to

406
00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:22.880
talk about, especially that hopefully one
of these transitional justices, the GE,

407
00:37:22.039 --> 00:37:25.920
for example, becomes that closing court. Justice and peace has not been and

408
00:37:27.000 --> 00:37:32.119
will not. We have been at
this time eighteen years and we have not

409
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:37.639
finished and it is estimated that,
in my case, they will take,

410
00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:42.800
according to research and calculations, what
the mappoea do fifty more years. Who

411
00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:47.079
keeps that justice system alive. It' s me if I get out of

412
00:37:47.239 --> 00:37:51.360
that justice and peace system it'
s gonna collapse. And it' s

413
00:37:51.440 --> 00:37:58.719
going to collapse because it' s
precisely who keeps him alive with all these

414
00:37:58.719 --> 00:38:00.000
situations that I' ve been.
Me. I have seen that in the

415
00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:06.280
Nuremberg Tribune, where seventy- five
eighty million deaths were judged in the Second

416
00:38:06.280 --> 00:38:13.039
World War between civilians and the military. They took ten times in the International

417
00:38:13.159 --> 00:38:17.320
Military Tribunal of the Far East,
where the Japanese were tried, they took

418
00:38:17.400 --> 00:38:22.559
two and a half years. In
the Italian courts and international courts that tried

419
00:38:22.599 --> 00:38:27.920
the Italians took less than two years. So, it is not possible that

420
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:32.360
this Court of Justice has taken eighteen
years when it was clad for eight years

421
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:37.639
and that we still have to wait
fifty more years to finish, that is,

422
00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:42.360
we will all be alive there what
kind of justice and messages are being

423
00:38:42.360 --> 00:38:46.199
sent to the victims, to the
postulates to the world. I am impossible

424
00:38:46.239 --> 00:38:52.480
to move forward with those issues in
that way. I was talking about Vicente

425
00:38:52.519 --> 00:38:55.039
Castaño' s death right now.
I want to ask you about one of

426
00:38:55.119 --> 00:39:00.280
the great mysteries and myths around the
subject of paramilitarism, the death of Carlos

427
00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:07.400
Castaño. What is the truth for
you the death of Carlos cast The death

428
00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:13.920
of Carlos Castaño is a situation that
arose in the self- defenses. Carlos

429
00:39:13.960 --> 00:39:25.960
Castaño was psychologically decomposed, he had
tremendous problems with his personality. In the

430
00:39:25.960 --> 00:39:30.400
end, he had some problems that
also afflicted him, of feelings of enormous

431
00:39:30.519 --> 00:39:37.119
guilt for his newborn daughter, who
suffered from a disease that the translation is

432
00:39:37.239 --> 00:39:47.719
the cat' s mauling and at
some point decided that he would end the

433
00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:53.280
life of the Dient. Castaño felt
that Vicente was basically the maximum commander of

434
00:39:53.280 --> 00:39:58.639
self- defense, that he was
a political figure within self- defense,

435
00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:02.760
but that the royal command had him
vice and made him a vicious attack.

436
00:40:02.920 --> 00:40:12.320
Realizing this situation, he makes the
decision to organize a group of self-

437
00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:23.000
defenses that confronted Carlos Castaño and murdered
him. Mr Mancuso has speculated a lot

438
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:28.480
about his closeness or bond with whoever
was Attorney General of the Nation, Luis

439
00:40:28.599 --> 00:40:35.639
Camilo Osorio. How close he was
how much he served to protect or defend

440
00:40:35.679 --> 00:40:42.239
the interests of people close to paramilitarism
when he was in the head of the

441
00:40:42.239 --> 00:40:50.199
prosecution. Well, Mr Amilo Sorio
was the Attorney General of the Nation.

442
00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:57.320
I didn' t really have a
relationship with D A Osorio. I know

443
00:40:57.480 --> 00:41:05.960
our congressmen had a very close relationship
with him. But basically the importance of

444
00:41:06.039 --> 00:41:14.119
all these things that do not repeat
the challenge of peace. It is very

445
00:41:14.199 --> 00:41:17.679
important that all these issues should not
continue to be repeated, that we be

446
00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:22.079
able to make progress in building peace, that we be allowed to make progress

447
00:41:22.119 --> 00:41:25.800
in building peace, that the State
fulfil its commitments and that justice also fulfil

448
00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:30.159
its commitments to those we fulfil.
There are some very important issues at present

449
00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:35.679
that I would like to address and
have to do with the issue of agrarian

450
00:41:35.719 --> 00:41:40.760
reform. The Government is currently buying
the land, not dispossessing it and buying

451
00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:46.039
it at commercial prices. That is
to say, it seems very good,

452
00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:52.480
because it is a historic debt that
we have this confrontation that occurred first with

453
00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:55.679
the violence of my partisan, generated
a great displacement in the beginning. Then

454
00:41:55.719 --> 00:42:01.039
the guerrilla violence also took off and
there was a great displacement for that moment.

455
00:42:01.480 --> 00:42:07.199
And then, when the self-
defenses arrived, there was also huge

456
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:15.159
displacement, spoils, looting and many
people came back and took advantage of that

457
00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:19.320
moment and bought land at the price
of sick chicken. These situations today,

458
00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:25.400
I believe, when you profit from
the violence of war, you are left

459
00:42:25.440 --> 00:42:36.360
with an indirect debt to the country. Moreover, it is an action that

460
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:43.800
could compensate the situations that arose,
with thousands of peasants and people who were

461
00:42:43.840 --> 00:42:47.800
forced to move to those belts of
misery in the cities and who have opportunities.

462
00:42:51.639 --> 00:42:54.800
Colombia, one of the most unequal
countries in the world, this land

463
00:42:54.840 --> 00:42:59.400
that the government is buying. I
would invite all these people, those who

464
00:42:59.480 --> 00:43:05.760
have had the land in a traditional
way for many years and those who acquired

465
00:43:05.880 --> 00:43:12.800
the land in this way when the
armed conflict, when these displacements that plague

466
00:43:12.920 --> 00:43:15.840
that land to the Government to contribute
to peace, to agrarian reform, so

467
00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:21.559
that half of the land they sell
uses those money to generate intensive productions,

468
00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:28.719
because they are in extensive productions.
And so the government buys the land it

469
00:43:28.760 --> 00:43:31.639
gives to peasants who were displaced from
their hours to arm intensive productive projects in

470
00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:38.440
that area. That way we redistribute
wealth. That way we create peace.

471
00:43:38.920 --> 00:43:44.280
And that' s a strong message. I am sending a message to the

472
00:43:44.360 --> 00:43:50.360
President just a few days ago,
and I would like to repeat it again

473
00:43:50.440 --> 00:43:54.960
by taking advantage of the fact that
I am here at the hearing, at

474
00:43:54.960 --> 00:44:00.159
this stage, in this interview with
you men, we want to support him

475
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:06.679
in this process. I want to
tell you that this big reform, which

476
00:44:06.760 --> 00:44:10.920
is being proposed, I join her, I agree with her and we want

477
00:44:12.079 --> 00:44:17.679
to help on that issue that is
going to bring huge successes to the country

478
00:44:17.719 --> 00:44:23.159
and that is one of the fundamental
steps towards achieving peace in this country.

479
00:44:24.199 --> 00:44:28.880
Mr Loncuse, you could be in
Italy today, you could be in the

480
00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:31.280
United States today, however, in
this interview and you said that you have

481
00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:38.119
come back because you want to make
up for the mistakes you have made and

482
00:44:38.199 --> 00:44:39.039
want to make amends and you want
to put your face to the victims.

483
00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:44.519
And now you' re messing with
the most sensitive issue I owe, paramilitarism.

484
00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:50.039
Self- defense displaced a lot of
people and took a lot of land.

485
00:44:50.239 --> 00:44:53.960
If you are in that tonic being
mancursor, you should not send a

486
00:44:54.119 --> 00:45:00.000
signal as an example, for I
specifically refer to your lands in Highlands and

487
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:06.199
Hidden Ports. Today there were probably
the names of other people or their relatives,

488
00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:09.039
but you also benefited from those lands. Why don' t you return

489
00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:17.840
them. Julio, I returned all
the lands and properties that were in my

490
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:22.559
possession that I acquired during the entire
armed conflict, even those that I legally

491
00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:30.280
bought before the conflict. All of
them were handed over to repair in fact,

492
00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:36.599
the sum of the total land that
I delivered far exceeded the amount of

493
00:45:36.639 --> 00:45:42.440
land that had been handed over by
all rebel groups that had entered into negotiations

494
00:45:42.440 --> 00:45:46.480
with the Government. That' s
the size of the repair. About five

495
00:45:46.599 --> 00:45:51.519
hundred properties I handed over to the
Government for repair, in fact to be

496
00:45:51.519 --> 00:45:53.599
able to hand it over. By
that time let us remember that whoever received

497
00:45:53.639 --> 00:45:58.000
the goods was social action and did
not want to receive the goods. And

498
00:45:58.039 --> 00:46:01.280
I didn' t want to get
the goods. Then I realize to have

499
00:46:01.400 --> 00:46:07.719
an excuse for the stage that was
given later. I even had to go

500
00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:14.280
to the Supreme Court of Justice to
force the national government, through social action,

501
00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:19.079
to receive my property. At that
point I had to go begging.

502
00:46:19.199 --> 00:46:23.880
Government gentlemen. Please, please,
receive me the amazing Goods that this has

503
00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:31.679
happened. Mr Mancuso, you'
re recognized, I' m sorry,

504
00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:37.880
I' m not listening. You
have recognized that the evil you did is

505
00:46:38.119 --> 00:46:45.440
immense and that precisely what you are
doing does so to prevent it from happening

506
00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:54.199
again. I would like to refer
to your presence in the Colombian Congress,

507
00:46:54.480 --> 00:47:04.880
where you said you controlled more than
thirty percent of the Colombian Parliament. And

508
00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:12.119
for me that statement is the most
serious fact that Colombian institutions have had after

509
00:47:12.840 --> 00:47:22.960
April 9. Today you recognize that
this presence of paramilitarism in Congress was a

510
00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:32.559
scandal that did much harm. Doctor
Casas, what a joy to greet you

511
00:47:32.639 --> 00:47:37.440
in itself is faith in a scandalous
situation, of course, and that is

512
00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:40.159
what we have to avoid. Doctor
home. What situations like these keep repeating

513
00:47:40.199 --> 00:47:47.800
themselves. Look These armed actors have
given clear signs that they have a real

514
00:47:47.840 --> 00:47:53.880
will to advance peace processes. These
processes need to move forward. Seventy or

515
00:47:54.000 --> 00:47:59.920
seventy- five percent of the violence
and rearmament of the country comes from non

516
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:05.599
- rebels. Negotiations have been prioritized
with the ln that always promises in all

517
00:48:05.679 --> 00:48:07.960
its negotiations, but never fulfils.
Let' s hope that in this one

518
00:48:08.039 --> 00:48:12.280
comes to a happy end and there
are the rearmed ones on the side.

519
00:48:13.119 --> 00:48:17.519
If these people of the rebels demobilize, what will happen. The same thing

520
00:48:17.679 --> 00:48:22.840
is going to happen during all the
negotiations that have advanced from the war of

521
00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:28.320
the thousand days until today in the
hands of who left those territories that were

522
00:48:28.360 --> 00:48:31.719
given to the State in the hands
of the State not rearmed again. What

523
00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:37.440
is going to happen to those territories
will be taken by these armed non-

524
00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:43.079
rebel actors, who represent seventy-
seven percent of the country' s vilification.

525
00:48:43.559 --> 00:48:47.280
We have to prioritize them. We
need to speed up these negotiations so

526
00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:52.079
that that control they continue to have, which is territorial control and that implies

527
00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:58.599
political control, can tilt the political
balance in favor of or against whomever they

528
00:48:58.599 --> 00:49:01.880
want, of the interests they have. They have economic control, legal economies,

529
00:49:02.440 --> 00:49:10.559
illegal economies, social control and even
huge descent in the populations of the

530
00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:15.559
area, which many of them would
like to be of these young people.

531
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:22.599
Fixed the monkey today mancuso and that
we have to avoid that it keeps repeating,

532
00:49:22.119 --> 00:49:27.760
that they continue to support people who
arrive in the Congress of the Republic.

533
00:49:28.199 --> 00:49:35.079
That can' t happen. That
is why it is so important that

534
00:49:35.119 --> 00:49:39.599
the agreements that we have reached with
the Government and that those transitional justice systems

535
00:49:39.719 --> 00:49:46.599
that exist for the advancement and transition
of war, peace be fulfilled. It

536
00:49:46.639 --> 00:49:51.880
is not possible that they will not
be fulfilled. What a message they sent

537
00:49:51.880 --> 00:49:53.119
you. I have the right to
freedom. They don' t give me

538
00:49:53.679 --> 00:49:57.760
the freedom, I have the right
to exercise the stories. Why I am

539
00:49:57.880 --> 00:50:01.760
prevented from exercising those genes what is
the message that is sent to all of

540
00:50:01.800 --> 00:50:09.039
them. So, if doctor home
that situation that came up was embarrassing and

541
00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:14.800
we have to stop it from happening
anymore. Doctor. If you, just

542
00:50:14.880 --> 00:50:17.400
a few moments ago to a question
by John Paul, speak on the subject

543
00:50:17.400 --> 00:50:21.360
of Juan Camilo, I retrepo.
I want to ask you about someone specific.

544
00:50:21.559 --> 00:50:27.000
Ana María Flores, the one known
as the Batichica of Cúcuta. Don

545
00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:31.519
Camilo sol Sorry, Luis Camilo Osorio, Luis Camilo Sorio Sorry, Luis Camilo

546
00:50:31.639 --> 00:50:36.800
Sorio? Yes, Luis Camilo Sorio, who was the question of Juan Pablo

547
00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:43.000
and Ana María Flores, the one
known as the Batichica, and what relationship

548
00:50:43.079 --> 00:50:46.559
that whole story has to something that
you mentioned, which is really in this

549
00:50:46.599 --> 00:50:51.280
horror story, is another chapter of
horror, which are the crematory furnaces of

550
00:50:51.360 --> 00:50:55.920
Cucuta. What can you tell us
about Ana María Flores your relationship with Luis

551
00:50:57.039 --> 00:51:05.239
Camilo Sorio and that story of the
burning furnaces in Cucuta. Well, this

552
00:51:06.079 --> 00:51:09.559
lady prosecutor who was in Cúcuta beats
her. Indeed, it was related to

553
00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:15.000
self- defense. In fact,
the commanders of self- defense. Many

554
00:51:15.039 --> 00:51:22.199
of them slept there. The commander
of Gato had a sentimental relationship with her,

555
00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:25.840
one of the self- defense commanders, and it was a tragic situation

556
00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:30.960
that arose. Repeat. These are
things that don' t have to be

557
00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:34.800
repeated anymore and presented. We have
to stop them from being. But look

558
00:51:34.920 --> 00:51:40.760
what you get with the crematory ovens. There was a time when the statistics

559
00:51:40.880 --> 00:51:47.800
of people killed during the armed conflict
rose and that made the military, army

560
00:51:47.840 --> 00:51:53.920
police, give the same figelía,
call them to order, draw their attention.

561
00:51:55.159 --> 00:52:04.119
Then they asked for what. They
said don' t leave me people

562
00:52:04.159 --> 00:52:07.840
lying in the territories under my responsibility. They said it' s not military.

563
00:52:07.400 --> 00:52:10.639
That is why Commander Carlos Castaño,
at one point called us a meeting

564
00:52:10.719 --> 00:52:15.880
and asked us for men, the
military are asking us not to leave the

565
00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:21.239
people who are discharged or murdered during
the armed conflict in their areas. I

566
00:52:21.280 --> 00:52:25.679
say and then where these people will
be left If there is, unfortunately,

567
00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:30.960
at that historic moment, a justification
for acting militarily against a person because you

568
00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:36.440
have to disappear to avoid two problems
with the military. It was the response

569
00:52:36.519 --> 00:52:43.159
of Commander Carlos Castaño. Then they
started using this type of oven, but

570
00:52:43.239 --> 00:52:47.320
they also started throwing them in the
neighboring country, in Venezuela. I'

571
00:52:47.360 --> 00:52:52.599
ve been advancing from before my stories
and now with the stories of postponing the

572
00:52:52.599 --> 00:52:58.519
search unit for people reported missing and
with the hed I' ve been advancing

573
00:52:58.960 --> 00:53:05.679
these issues of searching for people,
all for missing and we' re going

574
00:53:06.039 --> 00:53:09.599
through several demobilized. Many of them
were expelled from this transitional justice law.

575
00:53:10.360 --> 00:53:15.199
Many of them were not fulfilled,
they were not even received from the beginning

576
00:53:15.320 --> 00:53:23.079
in this transitional justice and with them
we have managed to locate about a thousand

577
00:53:23.119 --> 00:53:30.719
missing persons in the region of Catatumbo
and a thousand more missing persons victims of

578
00:53:30.719 --> 00:53:37.159
the armed conflict, our victims within
the armed conflict in the area of Uraba

579
00:53:37.159 --> 00:53:42.119
and Córdoba. It is very important
that these tasks be further advanced. But

580
00:53:42.199 --> 00:53:46.480
this can only be achieved if we
are free See that we have not been

581
00:53:46.519 --> 00:53:52.199
able to move forward to recover all
these bodies, because we have not been

582
00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:53.119
able to go to the areas,
to locate the places where they are.

583
00:53:53.440 --> 00:54:00.559
And this is a huge humanitarian effort, a huge commitment to the end of

584
00:54:00.800 --> 00:54:09.159
that mourning, I saw from among
the families of the victims that we caused

585
00:54:09.280 --> 00:54:15.679
so much pain and suffering from this
humanitarian tragedy that the conflict in Colombia meant.

586
00:54:16.320 --> 00:54:22.800
Yes, Mr Salvatore Mancuso, a
moment ago, responding to Daniel Coronel

587
00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:28.719
' s questions, you spoke of
that closeness and contact that they had at

588
00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:34.079
the time with Pedro Juan Moreno,
at a time when this was Secretary of

589
00:54:34.159 --> 00:54:39.280
Government of the governorship ofÁlvaro urie
Vls in Antioqua, but then, when

590
00:54:39.360 --> 00:54:44.840
Álvaro Uribe that elected President in the
first years of his government, they continued

591
00:54:44.840 --> 00:54:52.360
together. You continued to maintain contact
with Pedro Juan Moreno during the presidency of

592
00:54:52.400 --> 00:55:00.000
Alvaro Uribe, he continued to carry
and bring messages or coordinate with you.

593
00:55:00.800 --> 00:55:05.519
See, I' m feeling like
I' m in a real one-

594
00:55:06.239 --> 00:55:09.800
of- a- kind hearing before
the Chief. I think the subject of

595
00:55:09.920 --> 00:55:15.880
Pedro Juan and Uribe is a good
one. Of course, we had a

596
00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:24.519
relationship with Pedro Juan all along until
he had that tragic death in that helicopter

597
00:55:25.000 --> 00:55:34.440
accident, so we always had a
very good relationship with him. Mr Mancurso,

598
00:55:35.199 --> 00:55:38.800
I' m going to ask you
about two names related to a department

599
00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:44.159
where you also had a lot of
influence, the Suscrip Department. What did

600
00:55:44.239 --> 00:55:47.679
you have to do with the University
of Sucre, with Jaira Acuña, with

601
00:55:47.800 --> 00:55:55.119
Emil C López, known as La
Gata. Well Yaira Cuña had certain relationships

602
00:55:55.119 --> 00:55:59.800
with self- defense. I didn' t handle that subject. It was

603
00:56:00.079 --> 00:56:06.280
run by the chain and handled by
the other commanders who were in the area

604
00:56:06.679 --> 00:56:15.480
and with the cat we had a
relationship when the self- defense groups declared

605
00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:23.159
it a military objective, especially in
this zone of block heroes of the mountains

606
00:56:23.360 --> 00:56:27.800
of Mary, because they did not
want to pay the war taxation that was

607
00:56:27.800 --> 00:56:30.880
charged to them. She was declared
a military target. She searched for Commander

608
00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:37.760
Carlos lus Castaño through Monsignor Garcia,
the Monsignor of Uraba and arrived through a

609
00:56:37.800 --> 00:56:44.159
Magangue priest and Commander Carlos Castaño told
her to look at that area of mancurrence

610
00:56:44.199 --> 00:56:50.519
and asked me to attend to her. And indeed, I attended her and

611
00:56:50.599 --> 00:56:57.159
prevented her from being murdered at that
time, and she promised to provide her

612
00:56:57.320 --> 00:57:00.800
with self- defense through social works
that would advance, not direct resources that

613
00:57:00.840 --> 00:57:06.920
would deliver self- defense. Speaking
of resources, we saw the Chiquita Brand

614
00:57:06.960 --> 00:57:13.039
scandal first confirmed by the US authorities
in Colombia. Nothing could have happened with

615
00:57:13.119 --> 00:57:17.679
Chiquita Brand. Now it has already
been learned of Daniel' s ruling in

616
00:57:17.679 --> 00:57:24.239
the Colonial report the previous Friday and
that he opens a gap that may break

617
00:57:24.360 --> 00:57:30.360
Chiquita Brand for the compensation. When
you are going to hand over the list

618
00:57:30.480 --> 00:57:38.679
of the other companies that contributed to
the tragedy of self- defense, displacement,

619
00:57:38.880 --> 00:57:44.800
death, the disappearance of peasants,
those who did not want to move,

620
00:57:44.880 --> 00:57:49.360
give up their lands, what happened
to them besides Chiquita Brand, when

621
00:57:49.480 --> 00:57:58.480
you are going to tell us what
other businessmen had commercial relations July, the

622
00:57:58.599 --> 00:58:06.639
great tragedy of justice and peace and
having three justice systems in Colombia for the

623
00:58:07.199 --> 00:58:14.599
same conflict, For a single conflict, is that one tells the truths.

624
00:58:15.519 --> 00:58:19.559
For example, we, from the
outset, in my particular case, are

625
00:58:19.639 --> 00:58:22.639
asking the taxation of justice and Pa
to create the pattern of macro criminality,

626
00:58:23.280 --> 00:58:32.559
state collusion and state relations with self- defense. He' s never wanted

627
00:58:32.599 --> 00:58:37.840
to create it, and I'
ve asked for it on countless occasions.

628
00:58:37.559 --> 00:58:43.239
Why don' t you believe it. That is precisely why they fragment justice

629
00:58:43.280 --> 00:58:51.000
and truth in order to prevent those
responsible for the State, representatives of the

630
00:58:51.000 --> 00:58:58.679
State, from having to assume responsibility
for State crimes that we advance together with

631
00:58:58.800 --> 00:59:07.000
the institutions of the Espace, we
have given to the transitional justice of Colombia

632
00:59:07.039 --> 00:59:15.719
all the names of the business enterprises
that have had links and relations with the

633
00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:19.320
self- defenses, and that pattern
of macro criminality has not been created either.

634
00:59:20.159 --> 00:59:25.920
Those investigations have not reached a happy
port. That is why the fragmentation

635
00:59:25.960 --> 00:59:30.840
of the truth in different justices is
the worst thing that can happen to the

636
00:59:31.199 --> 00:59:37.559
country, because there were no three
armed conflicts here. There was only one

637
00:59:37.760 --> 00:59:42.440
armed conflict with different actors here.
That is why truth is required in a

638
00:59:42.599 --> 00:59:49.360
single system of transitional justice and a
system of closure of transitional justice, because

639
00:59:49.480 --> 00:59:52.880
if not all the truths we have
told, which we have already expressed,

640
00:59:53.000 --> 00:59:58.480
will happen what you are saying and
when you will tell those truths and what

641
00:59:58.599 --> 01:00:04.440
will happen to those truths are already
told justice. Let us ask them what

642
01:00:04.519 --> 01:00:07.480
they have done with these truths,
why they have not advanced, why they

643
01:00:07.559 --> 01:00:13.800
have not created these patterns of macrocneminerality, why they do not fulfill their proper

644
01:00:13.880 --> 01:00:17.239
function and why they fail to fulfill
us. To those of us who have

645
01:00:17.280 --> 01:00:22.840
fulfilled what kind of message we are
sending the rearmed, that they remain at

646
01:00:22.880 --> 01:00:25.719
war, that they do not demobilize, that they will fail as they have

647
01:00:25.719 --> 01:00:30.039
always been failing. That is the
message that is being sent to those boys,

648
01:00:30.599 --> 01:00:35.039
to those armed men and women out
there who continue to generate victims,

649
01:00:35.119 --> 01:00:40.119
as Alfonso Cano once said, who
was the commander of the face. Within

650
01:00:40.239 --> 01:00:45.079
how many thousands more dead we will
be able to understand that it is not

651
01:00:45.159 --> 01:00:52.360
the way to solve these armed conflicts
that the country is experiencing, but they

652
01:00:52.360 --> 01:00:58.079
are taking shape. If all the
businessmen who lived with you, the state

653
01:00:58.119 --> 01:01:01.960
forces, the military and police officers
who were on your payroll, all that

654
01:01:02.000 --> 01:01:07.199
information is in a drawer, somewhere
in that process that has had the truth

655
01:01:08.519 --> 01:01:16.800
that you surrendered. In that same
drawer, there are also the tests,

656
01:01:17.639 --> 01:01:27.119
or we are only with your word
to see. On many occasions there was

657
01:01:27.119 --> 01:01:31.960
evidence, but let us remember that
these were illegal organizations. You, when

658
01:01:32.079 --> 01:01:37.760
you are inside an illegal organization and
you had never crossed your mind, you

659
01:01:37.800 --> 01:01:40.800
had to go through a justice system
where you were going to have to go

660
01:01:40.840 --> 01:01:49.320
tell truths and give evidence. You
never leave evidence sporadically that gave one or

661
01:01:49.400 --> 01:01:53.119
another proof that we had kept,
but not saved because we are going to

662
01:01:53.199 --> 01:02:00.400
use it within transitional justice processes,
but because fortunately they were kept there within

663
01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:06.320
these processes. When you graz situations, you don' t go to a

664
01:02:06.519 --> 01:02:10.880
notary with an illegal actor and sign
an agreement. They are all agreements that

665
01:02:10.920 --> 01:02:16.039
are worded July and in this way
were advanced. Now what we do have

666
01:02:16.119 --> 01:02:22.199
are the witnesses, the contexts,
the situations, how they occurred and,

667
01:02:22.119 --> 01:02:31.000
indeed, that the facts were presented. I have a concern before Daniel returns

668
01:02:31.079 --> 01:02:37.360
to his interview that has generously allowed
him to share with his colleagues here at

669
01:02:37.360 --> 01:02:42.559
the LEW. It' s the
first time we' ve participated in a

670
01:02:42.599 --> 01:02:46.480
colonel' s report, and that
speaks of his not only professionalism, but

671
01:02:46.480 --> 01:02:52.000
his generosity. As Mr Selvan,
the last concern I have before going back

672
01:02:52.000 --> 01:02:59.280
to Daniel is to pick up the
first thing that you said your regret,

673
01:03:01.400 --> 01:03:07.480
after as Kano said, how many
deaths we see ourselves in, after all

674
01:03:07.559 --> 01:03:16.679
those dead and you want to face
compensation to all those victims. You put

675
01:03:16.719 --> 01:03:22.559
your head on the pillow and you
sleep, sleep calmly, close your eyes

676
01:03:22.599 --> 01:03:30.159
and sleep easy. Julio. At
first, the situation was very complex.

677
01:03:31.119 --> 01:03:37.599
I felt and still felt that great
responsibility on my shoulders, that feeling of

678
01:03:37.599 --> 01:03:45.519
guilt. But peace is an act
of daily construction. When I began to

679
01:03:45.559 --> 01:03:52.559
see to listen, to feel a
minimal part of that immense pain and damage

680
01:03:52.559 --> 01:03:59.880
and suffering that we caused to the
victims, I cried in the audience,

681
01:04:00.840 --> 01:04:03.840
I cried in the nights I didn' t sleep well. The souls,

682
01:04:03.880 --> 01:04:13.760
as we say, visited me and
I had to do a huge job and

683
01:04:13.880 --> 01:04:15.920
it was to start by asking them
for forgiveness. But before that, forgive

684
01:04:16.159 --> 01:04:21.760
myself, commit myself, with my
conscience, with the victims, with the

685
01:04:21.760 --> 01:04:26.440
country, with my family, that
this could not continue to happen, to

686
01:04:26.519 --> 01:04:32.639
work for the rest of my life, to dismantle those factors of violence,

687
01:04:32.800 --> 01:04:43.920
a situation that affects one deeply,
very deeply. It' s a situation

688
01:04:44.000 --> 01:04:48.199
that leads you to commit for the
rest of your life because we can'

689
01:04:48.199 --> 01:04:54.360
t return human lives. We cannot
repair the irreparable, but we can contribute

690
01:04:54.400 --> 01:05:01.719
from our commitment, from our will, to the continuation of this tragedy in

691
01:05:01.960 --> 01:05:10.119
the country. It is a situation
that we must begin by fulfilling and fulfilling

692
01:05:10.159 --> 01:05:15.280
the institutions of the State for fulfilling
restorative justice. If we have the right

693
01:05:15.360 --> 01:05:19.400
to freedom, if they are being
asked by the Government through a resolution that

694
01:05:19.440 --> 01:05:23.559
has named me, it is a
hector of peace, to give me freedom,

695
01:05:24.039 --> 01:05:29.760
why they do not. There is
a politicization of justice in this case,

696
01:05:29.880 --> 01:05:34.719
there is a manipulation of justice to
prevent peace from being built. They

697
01:05:34.840 --> 01:05:39.679
are basically turning from this justice into
enemies of peace, and that we have

698
01:05:39.679 --> 01:05:44.159
to avoid. The other thing I
would like to take advantage of, as

699
01:05:44.159 --> 01:05:50.679
we are closing this interview to send
a discussion to the President of the Republic

700
01:05:50.880 --> 01:05:53.159
and it is I who have decided
to return to the country. For all

701
01:05:53.199 --> 01:05:59.840
this stuff I just told you.
I would like to invite you to prioritize

702
01:06:00.119 --> 01:06:05.440
that agenda of the past with those
non- rebels who dynamize that agenda and

703
01:06:05.639 --> 01:06:14.400
who can move forward, who,
please, will achieve this peace, who

704
01:06:14.920 --> 01:06:18.639
will not desist from it, nor
will we and all those who have that

705
01:06:18.679 --> 01:06:21.800
will and that commitment to move forward. I am sure that many of our

706
01:06:21.880 --> 01:06:30.679
fellow former commanders have the same will
to move forward, to support this process

707
01:06:30.719 --> 01:06:35.239
of pacification of the country and so
that these facts do not continue to be

708
01:06:35.239 --> 01:06:41.719
repeated. Daniel' s guest is. Thank you so much, Julio.

709
01:06:43.400 --> 01:06:48.840
Thank you so much, Julio.
I would like to ask Mr Mancuso several

710
01:06:48.880 --> 01:06:56.719
things before I fire him. Ecopetrol
is the main company in Colombia. Ecopetrol

711
01:06:57.199 --> 01:07:02.440
belongs to more than eighty percent of
Colombians, to all taxpayers, and it

712
01:07:02.440 --> 01:07:10.920
turns out that you have said that
with funds from Copetrol the paramilitaries were also

713
01:07:10.960 --> 01:07:19.000
financed, that Copetrol' s directives
at some time facilitated that money from the

714
01:07:19.119 --> 01:07:26.760
country' s main company would come
to fund these criminal activities of self-

715
01:07:26.920 --> 01:07:33.039
defense groups. What can you tell
us about that, Mr Mancuso to see

716
01:07:33.320 --> 01:07:42.719
Ecopetrol indeed, had a responsibility in
the funding that we had the self-

717
01:07:43.159 --> 01:07:47.519
defenses at that time. Different types
of hydrocarbons, gasolines, EPM, etc

718
01:07:47.599 --> 01:07:54.679
pass through the polyduct, and they
gave us the schedule in which they were

719
01:07:54.719 --> 01:08:01.440
to be transported. This one so
they were going to move this whole series

720
01:08:01.480 --> 01:08:08.800
of hydrocarbons at the hours they were
injecting through the polyduct, and they had

721
01:08:08.880 --> 01:08:14.039
some sensors, plus he let them
know from which sectors the hydrocarbons were being

722
01:08:14.079 --> 01:08:18.159
extracted. We were allowed to extract, we used the listings, we knew

723
01:08:18.239 --> 01:08:24.399
what kind of fuel he was mobilizing
at the time. And besides that,

724
01:08:24.520 --> 01:08:29.840
there were dyes, for example,
for the gasoline that Eco petróle delivered to

725
01:08:29.920 --> 01:08:35.960
us so that they could be legally
sold to service stations. So, Eco

726
01:08:36.399 --> 01:08:43.079
Petrol had a responsibility to fund self- defense. That' s true,

727
01:08:43.840 --> 01:08:53.000
Daniel, how high was the level
of decision within Ecopetrol about this collaboration with

728
01:08:53.319 --> 01:08:58.880
self- defense groups? We'
re talking about engineers or guards in the

729
01:08:58.920 --> 01:09:02.000
areas where the polyduct was passing.
Or was it higher that I came to

730
01:09:02.079 --> 01:09:08.439
this collaboration? I' m sorry
I didn' t understand him and they

731
01:09:08.439 --> 01:09:12.399
' re repeating me. Yeah.
I was asking you, Mr Mancuso,

732
01:09:12.920 --> 01:09:19.239
if Copetrol' s senior management was
aware of this collaboration of the country'

733
01:09:19.960 --> 01:09:24.640
s main company with the criminal operations
of the so- called self- defenses.

734
01:09:24.840 --> 01:09:33.319
I don' t know. You
have also insistently mentioned the participation of

735
01:09:33.399 --> 01:09:42.079
former Vice President Francisco Santos Calderón in
your ongoing work or the suggestion for the

736
01:09:42.119 --> 01:09:45.800
launch of the capital block of self- defense. He has denied it for

737
01:09:45.880 --> 01:09:50.920
years and it is a process that
justice has not yet resolved. What does

738
01:09:50.960 --> 01:09:56.560
that tell us, what meetings you
personally had with Pacho Santos and what was

739
01:09:56.600 --> 01:10:02.479
discussed in that regard? C was
a person who led to self- defense.

740
01:10:02.560 --> 01:10:06.159
Let us remember the historical context for
that moment, so that we can

741
01:10:06.159 --> 01:10:12.920
understand it. The first time the
capital city. Bogotá was practically besieged by

742
01:10:12.960 --> 01:10:17.560
the guerrillas. One could not leave
outside the leaks of Bogotá and at that

743
01:10:17.760 --> 01:10:29.640
moment the powerful who live in this
great city felt the rigor of the real

744
01:10:29.680 --> 01:10:36.439
threat posed by guerrillas. At that
time they asked us to self- defense

745
01:10:36.520 --> 01:10:43.800
Panchito faith and met with Commander Carlos
Castaño, with me to create a block

746
01:10:43.880 --> 01:10:49.520
of self- defenses up to the
name. Capital was proposed to prevent the

747
01:10:49.720 --> 01:10:58.840
guerrillas from keeping them practically under siege
as they were at the time and from

748
01:10:59.039 --> 01:11:01.840
taking them in this city. We
prevented the guerrillas from taking power by arms

749
01:11:01.880 --> 01:11:06.279
definitively in the war, but we
all lost in a terrible situation that cannot

750
01:11:08.039 --> 01:11:13.279
continue to be repeated. Pachito Santos
was then in the United States as ambassador

751
01:11:13.319 --> 01:11:18.920
and in my particular case, for
example, when the United States asked me

752
01:11:18.960 --> 01:11:24.239
if I had a different citizenship and
if I would go to a different country,

753
01:11:24.359 --> 01:11:27.600
I said look yes. Right now
I am in justice and peace,

754
01:11:27.840 --> 01:11:32.000
transitional justice. I have the right
to the truth, to freedom. They

755
01:11:32.159 --> 01:11:38.520
have not fulfilled me and I have
fears that without fulfillment it will be to

756
01:11:38.600 --> 01:11:45.000
take me to a prison in Colombia
and within that prison to allow me to

757
01:11:45.119 --> 01:11:48.279
be protected, then I would prefer
to go to Italy. The United States

758
01:11:48.359 --> 01:11:55.439
issues a final removal order. This
is called the final removal order and designates

759
01:11:55.680 --> 01:12:00.279
Italy as the country of removal.
Everything was ready. They had three months

760
01:12:00.960 --> 01:12:04.560
to send me to Italy. It' s been four months. After three

761
01:12:04.640 --> 01:12:14.880
months. They cannot reverse that final
removal order and Ambassador Pachito Santos, at

762
01:12:14.880 --> 01:12:21.680
that time a pact with President Trump' s government that the final removal order

763
01:12:21.800 --> 01:12:30.680
from Italy to Colombia would be changed
and agreed that Colombia would deliver the vote

764
01:12:30.800 --> 01:12:35.319
and help with the lobby for the
election of the president of the BEAT of

765
01:12:35.439 --> 01:12:41.920
the Inter- American Development Bank,
which has traditionally been Latin American, and

766
01:12:41.960 --> 01:12:47.800
appoint an American director. In that
management. There was enormous political pressure,

767
01:12:48.359 --> 01:12:51.239
and yet, despite all these things, I was forced to accept the international

768
01:12:51.359 --> 01:13:00.399
protection of the United Nations against torture
and was in that process. I was

769
01:13:00.399 --> 01:13:01.760
going to go there, or I
was going to Italy, or I was

770
01:13:01.800 --> 01:13:06.840
going to stay in Colombia. I
even told the Government, to the extent

771
01:13:08.439 --> 01:13:12.600
that they gave me the necessary guarantees. If I was sent to Italy,

772
01:13:13.479 --> 01:13:19.199
I would go back to Colombia and
I did it Note that even with all

773
01:13:19.239 --> 01:13:24.600
these situations, when the President appoints
me as peace manager, I decide to

774
01:13:24.680 --> 01:13:29.079
honor that appointment and decide to honour
the moral commitment I have to the victims

775
01:13:29.079 --> 01:13:31.039
and I have returned. I have
returned to work for peace, for reconciliation.

776
01:13:32.720 --> 01:13:35.840
I want to do this, but
it is also important that I am

777
01:13:35.840 --> 01:13:41.479
honoured. If we have complied,
we must comply. Transitional justice has to

778
01:13:41.520 --> 01:13:46.239
fulfill and both have the power to
give me freedom because I have fulfilled.

779
01:13:46.279 --> 01:13:49.000
I don' t owe them one
day. And both have the position of

780
01:13:49.079 --> 01:13:57.479
lifting the measures of assurance on this
issue particularly in all these years, you

781
01:13:57.760 --> 01:14:04.119
have received the request to change your
version on the subject of Francisco Santos and

782
01:14:04.239 --> 01:14:09.079
the conformation of the capital block of
the self- defenses. Someone has brought

783
01:14:09.199 --> 01:14:13.840
you a reason or has spontaneously told
you why you are reconsidering these statements.

784
01:14:16.439 --> 01:14:21.159
Look all these years and when I
was in Itawi, sometimes on weekends people

785
01:14:21.199 --> 01:14:26.399
who you didn' t know and
who supposedly came to visit other inmates would

786
01:14:26.439 --> 01:14:31.199
come and pee around and they would
come to the cell and they would come

787
01:14:31.199 --> 01:14:35.119
and say they would send you to
say that please don' t talk about

788
01:14:35.119 --> 01:14:38.960
one, don' t talk about
the other, and at some point they

789
01:14:39.039 --> 01:14:44.720
told me not to talk about those
issues, that it was not convenient for

790
01:14:44.840 --> 01:14:46.840
the Government, for the country,
for my family, for me, that

791
01:14:46.920 --> 01:14:53.399
is, they were clear threats,
but I have always followed who committed.

792
01:14:53.479 --> 01:14:57.600
I' ve never been people of
changing versions. What I' m saying

793
01:14:57.680 --> 01:15:01.000
is the truth and that' s
it. Who was the emissary of those

794
01:15:01.000 --> 01:15:09.560
threats. Many justice knows who they
are. I' ve told them who

795
01:15:09.600 --> 01:15:14.680
' s been good. I would
like to ask you one last question,

796
01:15:15.399 --> 01:15:21.039
Mr Mancuso, the FARK committed a
terrible attack in Bogotá, the attack on

797
01:15:21.439 --> 01:15:28.640
the El Nogal club, where they
killed 36 people with a bomb. A

798
01:15:30.279 --> 01:15:39.840
terrible massacre that Colombians keep in their
memory. Within the justifications that nothing makes

799
01:15:39.960 --> 01:15:45.600
this fact of blood justifiable. But
among the justifications that were intended to invoke

800
01:15:45.720 --> 01:15:50.840
the FART was that you had visited
or that you had ever stayed at the

801
01:15:50.840 --> 01:15:57.600
El Nogal club. I want to
ask you if that' s true,

802
01:15:57.880 --> 01:16:02.399
if it ever happened that you entered
or stayed at the club, well,

803
01:16:03.720 --> 01:16:06.119
I was never at the club that
the walnut. I don' t actually

804
01:16:06.119 --> 01:16:10.039
know him. I haven' t
been there. That justification given by the

805
01:16:10.760 --> 01:16:16.359
fark that I was there and no
other justification exists for putting a bomb on

806
01:16:17.279 --> 01:16:21.640
it and for being a terrorist attack
on any social club in Colombia or in

807
01:16:21.720 --> 01:16:26.359
the world. Those are atrocious facts
that were committed in the conflict and they

808
01:16:26.399 --> 01:16:30.880
will have to clarify it and it
would definitely be important for us to make

809
01:16:30.880 --> 01:16:35.920
peace. Daniel, I, unfortunately, have a legal process ab at eight

810
01:16:35.960 --> 01:16:43.000
thirty I have videoconferences. I have
to disconnect. I thank all of you,

811
01:16:44.239 --> 01:16:45.560
you, Julia, Doctor Casas,
the whole Bureau, all the presidents,

812
01:16:45.840 --> 01:16:49.279
all the listeners and followers of you
for this interview and always to order

813
01:16:50.119 --> 01:16:58.520
with you for what you are needing
and especially for the country and the victims,

814
01:16:59.039 --> 01:17:02.680
so that we can reconsider it is
very important that we all make peace

815
01:17:02.760 --> 01:17:14.159
people in our country. That is
a daily construction and we have to do

816
01:17:14.199 --> 01:17:17.199
it, because many thanks to Salvatore
Mancuso excereso ara militar, now peace manager