June 12, 2024
“Pacho Santos se reunió con Carlos Castaño y conmigo”: Salvatore Mancuso
WEBVTT
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You have also insistently mentioned the participation
of former Vice President Francisco Santos Calderón in
2
00:00:12.119 --> 00:00:15.560
the start- up or suggestion for
the start- up of the capital block
3
00:00:15.599 --> 00:00:19.879
of self- defense. He has
denied it for years and it is a
4
00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:24.879
process that justice has not yet resolved. What tells us about that, which
5
00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:29.719
meetings you personally had with Pacho Santos, and that' s what we talked
6
00:00:29.719 --> 00:00:35.840
about. My pachito was a person
who led to self- defense. Let
7
00:00:35.880 --> 00:00:39.840
us remember the historical context for that
moment in order to understand it. The
8
00:00:39.960 --> 00:00:45.200
first time the capital city, Bogotá
was practically besieged by the guerrillas, it
9
00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:51.280
was impossible to leave outside the leaks
of Bogotá and at that moment the powerful
10
00:00:51.840 --> 00:01:00.399
people who come in this great city
felt the rigor of the real threat that
11
00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:08.200
the guerrillas represented at that time asked
us to self- defense. Panchito went
12
00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:15.560
and met with Commander Carlos Castaño,
with me to create a block of self
13
00:01:15.719 --> 00:01:23.040
- defenses up to the name.
Capital was proposed to prevent the guerrillas from
14
00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:30.439
keeping them practically under siege as they
were at the time and from taking over
15
00:01:30.519 --> 00:01:34.879
this capital city. We prevented the
guerrillas from taking power by arms definitively in
16
00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:40.040
the war, but we all lost
in a terrible situation that cannot continue to
17
00:01:40.200 --> 00:01:45.280
be repeated. Pachito Santos was then
in the United States as ambassador and in
18
00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:52.159
my particular case, for example,
when the United States asks me if I
19
00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:56.200
have a different citizenship and if I
would go to a different country, I
20
00:01:56.239 --> 00:02:00.879
said look yes, right now I
am in post- transitional justice and peace.
21
00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:05.280
I have the right to the truth, to freedom. They have not
22
00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:09.879
fulfilled me and I have fears that
without fulfillment it will be to take me
23
00:02:10.520 --> 00:02:14.400
to a prison in Colombia and inside
that prison to allow me to be murdered.
24
00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:21.599
Then I' d rather go to
Italy. The United States issues a
25
00:02:21.680 --> 00:02:27.960
final removal order. This is called
the final removal order and designates Italy as
26
00:02:28.039 --> 00:02:34.159
the country of removal. Everything was
ready. They had three months to send
27
00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:38.759
me to Italy. It was four
months after three months passed. They cannot
28
00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:46.759
reverse that final order of removal and
Ambassador Pachito Santos at that time pact with
29
00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:55.240
President Trump' s government that the
final order of removal of mancurrencies from Italy
30
00:02:55.280 --> 00:03:04.879
to Colombia should be changed and agreed
that Colombia would deliver the vote and help
31
00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:08.599
with the lob for the election of
the president of the BEAT, of the
32
00:03:08.599 --> 00:03:15.080
Introamerican Development Bank, which has traditionally
been Latin American, and appoint an American
33
00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:21.759
director. There was enormous political pressure
in that management, and yet, despite
34
00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:24.800
all those things, I believed what
then forced me to embrace the international protection
35
00:03:24.919 --> 00:03:31.199
of the United Nations against torture and
was in that process. I was going
36
00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:35.400
to go there or I was going
to Italy, I was going to stay
37
00:03:35.400 --> 00:03:39.759
in Colombia. I even told the
Government that, to the extent that they
38
00:03:39.800 --> 00:03:44.800
gave me the necessary guarantees, if
they sent me to Italy, I would
39
00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:51.960
go back to Colombia and I did
so Note that even with all these situations,
40
00:03:52.360 --> 00:03:55.360
when the President appoints me peace manager. I decide to honor that appointment
41
00:03:55.439 --> 00:04:00.840
and decide to honor my moral commitment
to the victims and I have returned.
42
00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:05.719
I have returned to work for peace, for reconciliation. I want to do
43
00:04:05.800 --> 00:04:09.560
this, but it is also important
that I am aware that we have complied
44
00:04:09.560 --> 00:04:14.159
with it. We have to comply. Transitional justice has to fulfill and both
45
00:04:14.360 --> 00:04:18.480
have the power to give me freedom
because I have fulfilled. I do not
46
00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:25.079
owe you a single day and both
have the possibility to lift the measures of
47
00:04:25.160 --> 00:04:31.720
assurance on this issue particularly in all
these years, you have received the request
48
00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:39.040
to change your version on the subject
of Francisco Santos and the conformation of the
49
00:04:39.079 --> 00:04:41.920
capital block of the self- defenses. Someone has brought you a reason or
50
00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:49.600
has spontaneously told you why you are
reconsidering these statements. Look all these years
51
00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:54.319
and when I was in Itawi,
sometimes they would come in on weekends,
52
00:04:54.680 --> 00:04:58.839
visiting days, people who you didn' t know and who were supposed to
53
00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:03.000
visit other inmates and they would come
and see me walking around they would come
54
00:05:03.079 --> 00:05:06.879
to the cell and they would come
and say they would send you to say
55
00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:09.879
please don' t talk about one, don' t talk about the other.
56
00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:13.800
And at some point they told me
not to talk about those issues,
57
00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:17.839
that it was not convenient for the
Government, for the country, for my
58
00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:23.000
family, for me, that is, they were clear threats. But I
59
00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:26.920
' ve always followed who' s
engaged. I' ve never been a
60
00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:30.800
person to be changing versions. What
I' m saying is the truth and
61
00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:36.360
that' s it. Who was
the emissary of those threats. Many justice
62
00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:41.720
knows who they are. To them
I have told them who they have been.
1
00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:11.039
You have also insistently mentioned the participation
of former Vice President Francisco Santos Calderón in
2
00:00:12.119 --> 00:00:15.560
the start- up or suggestion for
the start- up of the capital block
3
00:00:15.599 --> 00:00:19.879
of self- defense. He has
denied it for years and it is a
4
00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:24.879
process that justice has not yet resolved. What tells us about that, which
5
00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:29.719
meetings you personally had with Pacho Santos, and that' s what we talked
6
00:00:29.719 --> 00:00:35.840
about. My pachito was a person
who led to self- defense. Let
7
00:00:35.880 --> 00:00:39.840
us remember the historical context for that
moment in order to understand it. The
8
00:00:39.960 --> 00:00:45.200
first time the capital city, Bogotá
was practically besieged by the guerrillas, it
9
00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:51.280
was impossible to leave outside the leaks
of Bogotá and at that moment the powerful
10
00:00:51.840 --> 00:01:00.399
people who come in this great city
felt the rigor of the real threat that
11
00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:08.200
the guerrillas represented at that time asked
us to self- defense. Panchito went
12
00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:15.560
and met with Commander Carlos Castaño,
with me to create a block of self
13
00:01:15.719 --> 00:01:23.040
- defenses up to the name.
Capital was proposed to prevent the guerrillas from
14
00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:30.439
keeping them practically under siege as they
were at the time and from taking over
15
00:01:30.519 --> 00:01:34.879
this capital city. We prevented the
guerrillas from taking power by arms definitively in
16
00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:40.040
the war, but we all lost
in a terrible situation that cannot continue to
17
00:01:40.200 --> 00:01:45.280
be repeated. Pachito Santos was then
in the United States as ambassador and in
18
00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:52.159
my particular case, for example,
when the United States asks me if I
19
00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:56.200
have a different citizenship and if I
would go to a different country, I
20
00:01:56.239 --> 00:02:00.879
said look yes, right now I
am in post- transitional justice and peace.
21
00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:05.280
I have the right to the truth, to freedom. They have not
22
00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:09.879
fulfilled me and I have fears that
without fulfillment it will be to take me
23
00:02:10.520 --> 00:02:14.400
to a prison in Colombia and inside
that prison to allow me to be murdered.
24
00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:21.599
Then I' d rather go to
Italy. The United States issues a
25
00:02:21.680 --> 00:02:27.960
final removal order. This is called
the final removal order and designates Italy as
26
00:02:28.039 --> 00:02:34.159
the country of removal. Everything was
ready. They had three months to send
27
00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:38.759
me to Italy. It was four
months after three months passed. They cannot
28
00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:46.759
reverse that final order of removal and
Ambassador Pachito Santos at that time pact with
29
00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:55.240
President Trump' s government that the
final order of removal of mancurrencies from Italy
30
00:02:55.280 --> 00:03:04.879
to Colombia should be changed and agreed
that Colombia would deliver the vote and help
31
00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:08.599
with the lob for the election of
the president of the BEAT, of the
32
00:03:08.599 --> 00:03:15.080
Introamerican Development Bank, which has traditionally
been Latin American, and appoint an American
33
00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:21.759
director. There was enormous political pressure
in that management, and yet, despite
34
00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:24.800
all those things, I believed what
then forced me to embrace the international protection
35
00:03:24.919 --> 00:03:31.199
of the United Nations against torture and
was in that process. I was going
36
00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:35.400
to go there or I was going
to Italy, I was going to stay
37
00:03:35.400 --> 00:03:39.759
in Colombia. I even told the
Government that, to the extent that they
38
00:03:39.800 --> 00:03:44.800
gave me the necessary guarantees, if
they sent me to Italy, I would
39
00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:51.960
go back to Colombia and I did
so Note that even with all these situations,
40
00:03:52.360 --> 00:03:55.360
when the President appoints me peace manager. I decide to honor that appointment
41
00:03:55.439 --> 00:04:00.840
and decide to honor my moral commitment
to the victims and I have returned.
42
00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:05.719
I have returned to work for peace, for reconciliation. I want to do
43
00:04:05.800 --> 00:04:09.560
this, but it is also important
that I am aware that we have complied
44
00:04:09.560 --> 00:04:14.159
with it. We have to comply. Transitional justice has to fulfill and both
45
00:04:14.360 --> 00:04:18.480
have the power to give me freedom
because I have fulfilled. I do not
46
00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:25.079
owe you a single day and both
have the possibility to lift the measures of
47
00:04:25.160 --> 00:04:31.720
assurance on this issue particularly in all
these years, you have received the request
48
00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:39.040
to change your version on the subject
of Francisco Santos and the conformation of the
49
00:04:39.079 --> 00:04:41.920
capital block of the self- defenses. Someone has brought you a reason or
50
00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:49.600
has spontaneously told you why you are
reconsidering these statements. Look all these years
51
00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:54.319
and when I was in Itawi,
sometimes they would come in on weekends,
52
00:04:54.680 --> 00:04:58.839
visiting days, people who you didn' t know and who were supposed to
53
00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:03.000
visit other inmates and they would come
and see me walking around they would come
54
00:05:03.079 --> 00:05:06.879
to the cell and they would come
and say they would send you to say
55
00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:09.879
please don' t talk about one, don' t talk about the other.
56
00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:13.800
And at some point they told me
not to talk about those issues,
57
00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:17.839
that it was not convenient for the
Government, for the country, for my
58
00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:23.000
family, for me, that is, they were clear threats. But I
59
00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:26.920
' ve always followed who' s
engaged. I' ve never been a
60
00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:30.800
person to be changing versions. What
I' m saying is the truth and
61
00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:36.360
that' s it. Who was
the emissary of those threats. Many justice
62
00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:41.720
knows who they are. To them
I have told them who they have been.
