¿Es posible un gobierno sin tecnócratas?

0:01 The day to day is full of urgent news, controversial noise from fans. But for the quietness, the analysis and what we like to call slow- cooking journalism are my questions, an average rush program made by KFAM inspiring smiles. A social media debate recently broke out on public administration, meritocracy and ways of governing a country. What is technocracy? A government of technocrats or activists is preferable. What have been the contributions of technocracy and activism to the country.

0:46 For this chapter we spoke with the academic and former president of the National University of Colombia, Moisés Basserman, with María Angélica García, President of the Union of Civil Servants of Diplomatic and Consular Career of Colombia, with Francisco Javier Vera, climate activist and FE Development Director, Luis Fernando Mejía. I am Roberto Pombo, and this is chapter eighty of my questions welcome. It is curious how, in different forms and allegories, knowledge has been historically represented as an enemy, as the devil. One example I have already cited in several chapters is that of the apple of knowledge, in the Genesis account of the Christian Bible, in which Adam and Eve are expelled from paradise, condemned to work and to suffer for eating the forbidden fruit. In another older religious account, as in Greek mythology, it is presented through the story of promising a Titan friend of mortals, stealing the fire from the gods of the Olympus to deliver it to humans and being punished by the gods because that fire represents the knowledge that plucks humans from their innocence. And that' s when we' re supposed to know science, what brought us suffering. And much more recently, in that great novel, which is the name of the rose of the Italian writer Humberto Eco, he talks about how the hijacking of knowledge by the Church in the Abbey Library, where thousands of books that speak about the sciences and different cultures of the world are kept in an airtight manner, guarded by

2:22 Jorge de Burgos, a blind and fanatical monk who wants to avoid access to all that knowledge because he will turn the human away from the faith and make known to him a world of passions. Even more curious is that until relatively recently, knowledge was seen as a secret, a treasure reserved for a few and no longer a demon. Think, for example, how in our country, when it was not yet a country, those who knew how to read and write were clergymen, priests or royals, a luxury reserved for an elite. Knowledge then was or is in many cases a luxury for a group of them, not only names and religious, but men who can access elite universities, who look at the world from a tower. Times have changed and access to schools and universities has become a little wider. Universal education appeared and knowledge became an indispensable requirement to aspire to live in this competitive world. Knowledge then became one of the great virtues of the world, a minimum requirement for those who aspire to lead a nation. But knowledge of a science or technique is enough to lead a government. A few weeks ago this issue became a debate of columnists, opinion- makers, journalists, politicians and social media users, which can be titled technocrats versus activists. It all began when several important government

3:52 appointments were questioned because those who were selected to run these state entities did not have the dam to do so. Former Bogotá councillor Carlos Carrillo, new director of the National Unit for Disaster Risk Management. He is an industrial designer from the National University of Colombia with a master' s degree in art and design. Gustavo Bolívar, director of the Department of Social Prosperity, is not qualified in any career, has been a screenwriter and senator of the Republic. And Alexander Lopez, new director of the National Planning Department, that lawyer specializing in public policy and social enterprise management, confessed that mathematics has not been his strong suit. I am not an economist or aspire to do so, because mathematics gave me very hard, the truth, being that the first route, or the first element or the first way forward, to understand such a complex science.

4:45 But I know below where public policy has to be directed I want to see only one of those cadres based on national planning who knows this country as I know it. Critics point out that these appointments are inadequate because the new directors have neither preparation nor experience in the subjects they are going to handle. Those who defend appointments argue, among other things, that the technicians and technocrats of all life have not done things well and appealed to the honesty of the new directors who are committed to the cause. For example, President Petro Trinó Auro Comillas, Pierre García, was not criticized for having been a member of parliament acting as a technocrat. He led the Duke' s DPS and stole it from Gustavo Bolívares. Guarantee of transparency. He will lead the government' s DPS, of the change I close quotes. Then began a discussion full of cold and corrupt reductionisms and technocrat cartoons against ignorant but committed activists. As usual, we go in order that he is a technocrat in the strict sense of the word, he is a professional in some economic or administrative UAs math in a public office, that pursues efficiency without ideological considerations or at least that says the dictionary of the Rael. So far the definition sounds good, but in a world and a complex country like the one we live in, nothing is ever so simple. Let' s step back a little bit in time

6:18 to understand better. In the 1930s and 1940s in the United States, after those difficult years of the great depression prior to World War II, technology was beginning to dawn and to leave behind the industrial revolution. A group of people focused on engineering science in New York City conducted a study on the use of energy in the United States and the relationship between the use of energy and economic growth. One of the findings of that survey was that industrial employment had reached a peak of one thousand nine hundred and nineteen, but that employment was declining as industrial production continued to grow. This raised the specter that technological progress would create higher productivity, so less labour would be needed to produce more and that the economic system of the time would not be able to cope with such productivity growth. Thorstein Beblen, in his book The Engineers and the Price System, advocated removing the management of the economy from the hands of entrepreneurs and putting it into the hands of engineers, a proposal that was quite similar to what people thought was happening in the Soviet Union. On September 26th of a thousand nine hundred and thirty- two, Time magazine published an article with these findings and put this auro Comillas movement on the radar. The men who conduct these studies on American industrial efficiency call themselves technocrats close quotes. This new group of engineers

7:50 and professionals promoted the idea that this new technological world had to be led by engineers and experts who strictly applied scientific principles to everyday problems. As a curious fact, between one thousand nine hundred and thirty- six and one thousand nine hundred and forty- one, the movement reached Canada, where Georshua Hlderman led it. Several decades later, his grandson wants to bring technocracy to planet Mars, Tesla' s creator and Twitter owner, Elon Muskeri. That group of technocrats and their established movement died. However, the idea of a group of people with specific knowledge leading a government did not do so, but was redrawn years later with a turn in the 1960s, several young Latin Americans were awarded scholarships and educated in economics at universities in the United States, much of it in liberal economic doctrines, according to which the state does not have to intervene in the market. In his book on Chile Project, the Chilean economist Sebastián Edwards tells the story of the famous Chicago Boys, who, if they do not know them, are those Chilean economists who were awarded scholarships to study at the University of Chicago and were trained under the shelter of the liberal economist Milton Friedman, and who then held senior positions and defined economic policy during the Pinochet dictatorship. But Edwards also talks about Colombian economists who returned from studying in the United States. They performed in a completely different context, for while in Chile

9:22 they were able to apply all the doctrines they wanted. In Colombia, the projects proposed by the new technocrats had to pass first through Congress and then through the Court. It is said that in the country the technocracy had its beginning with President Carlos Gerar Restrepo, who in his term gave an important role to those economists that I already mentioned in the Department of National Planning. And since then the following governments have had a strong presence of economists. According to former minister and economist and self- declared technocrat Roberto Junguito. In a column of his, Misael Pastrana Borrero created his own kind of economists, commanded by two foreigners, Locklin Curry and Albert Berry. Alfonso López Mickelsen created an economic team by Rodrigo Botero, Miguel Urrutia, Jorge Ramírez, Guillermo Perry. Julio César Turbay' s president also leaned on economists to lead the Ministry of Finance, such as Jaime García Parra and Eduardo Biezner, and not to continue with the list of economists of ministries and senior positions of the DNP. It is enough to sum up that to this day they remain part of all governments, even the current one. What have been the contributions to the country and the failures of these young economists and technocrats? I asked the Director of Fedevelopment, Luis Hernando Mesia. Colombia, for several decades, has had a strong tradition of a technocracy that has been trained in postgraduate studies abroad and has then returned to the country to contribute with its work its knowledge in such important entities as the

10:58 neighborhood with the Republic, the National Planning Department and the Ministry of Finance and Public Credit. That technocracy has allowed Colombia to stand out in the Latin American arena as an economy with enormous stability, reflected, for example, in the fact that Colombia has had only four years of negative growth in the last one hundred and twenty- three years. The next best country in Latin America is Brazil, which has had sixteen years of contraction. This shows that Colombia has ratified a stability norm that has lacked the technocracy more emphasis on structural issues related to the labour market education, that allow for greater productivity growth, greater social mobility and also reduce inequality, which remains, unfortunately, very high, even in the context of Latin America. However, one criticism of the Colombian technocracy is that it is precisely the vast majority or seems to have brought together a homogenous group of elite people who have been able to gain access to studies in large universities and high- ranking officials. Jenny Pierce, professor and researcher at Londens School Economics, and Juan David Velasco, professor at the Faculty of Political Science at Javeriana University, wrote on this topic. The article published in the empty chair is an advance of a book that will be published soon and in which we analyze precisely who have been the directors of the National Planning Department,

12:28 managers and co- directors of the Bank of the Republic, Ministers of Finance and presidents of Copetrol between one thousand nine hundred ninety- one and two thousand twenty- three. On that tour they found six characteristics that define them as a power group. As first, most are economists trained at the University of the Andes. They then did doctorates at the Anglosajona Universities and have worked at the Center for Economic Development Studies, Development Headquarters or the National Association of Financial Institutions ANNIFE. Secondly, they defend the rights of private property and the rules of play pre- established in contracts. Third, they are almost entirely men.

13:09 Only 14 per cent of those on the Board of Directors of the Bank of the Republic have been women. Fourth, they are orthodox in economic management and oppose, for example, a high increase in the minimum wage. Fifthly, they agree with privatization in certain public goods, such as health, road infrastructure and education. And sixth, and more importantly, they are deeply disconnected from the popular field, i e, partner. In the study they are people who are not connected to what happens in the day to day of a Colombian on foot and that is why the authors set an example of how bad technocrats have been in the elections, as in the cases of Mauricio Cárdenas, Juan Carlos Echeverry and Alejandro Gaviria. This last feature reminds me of an episode that remained in the minds of many Colombians cendo the Minister of Finance, Alberto Carrasquilla, considered part of this group of technocrats, and while pursuing a tax reform project. In an interview, they asked him how much a bucket of eggs cost. His response showed his level of disconnection from my elders. It was like a shoe. Let' s say well, let' s say on the issue of eggs, because it depends on quality, but let' s say a thousand eight hundred pesos in a dozen or something like that is what I have in my head to give them context. At that time, the egg bucket was about eight thousand to nine thousand pesos. Shortly after these statements by the former Minister, mobilizations and protests across the country forced the withdrawal

14:41 of this reform. It is this same disconnection and coldness that has made technocracy unremarkable. White men from privileged families who have gone to elite universities, who have been in charge of the state for decades, are those who, from their offices in the center of bob O in the north, from a tower far away to the rest of the country, design policies to manage water in baranova or the management of land in condoto. However, not all technocrats are types with the same economic or right- wing ideology, and one of these exceptions is made by this same government the former director of the DNP, Jorge Iván González, a left- wing activist and at the same time academic man who unfortunately ceased to be part of the Gabinetti. And although the analysis of Colombian technocracies by academics is right, it seems that the counterpart or suggestion is that technicians or officials with economic or administrative experience should be replaced by activists or politicians who have popular recognition and support. This is where the discussion knows no nuances, because it is one thing to seek that the officials, ministers and members of the government who dictate policies are people who are more in context of what is happening in Colombia' s foot, and another very different thing is to label as corrupt and incompetent expert officials who have experience and training in a science. He referred to this as the former Minister of Agriculture. Cecilia López, when recently at an event Auro Comillas said the vapule that this government has

16:15 hit the technocracy is a shame. What is prevailing at this time is activism and contracts. Where' s the civil service. I' m closing Comillas. In this sense, the former Minist is right. The civil service of staff members should be given their real capacity for office, as if it were any job. However, the actions of the Government point to the fact that if, on the one hand, it despises technocracy, on the other hand, it prefers to have loyal and close officials of the President, even if they do not have what is required for the office, because the three cases mentioned at the beginning are only a few of the appointments questioned and it is not a question of hiring someone from the left or right, close or opposed to the Government, but rather people with experience. The case of Arabian lauras is one of them. The young politician has a short but meteoric career.

17:07 At only thirty years of age, he is the right hand of the President of the Republic. He has been part of the utl of then Senator Armando Benedetti, advisor to the campaign of the then presidential candidate, Gustavo Petro, director of the Department of Social Prosperity and now director of the Administrative Department of the Presidency. But where this trend has been most seen in the Government is in diplomatic positions. The list of consuls, attachés and ambassadors who have been appointed without diplomatic experience is long. Sebastián Guanumen as Consul of Chile, a young man with no diplomatic experience,Álvaro Moisés Ninco as Ambassador to Mexico, whose appointment was overthrown by the Administrative Tribunal of Cundinamarca for not fulfilling the requirements to occupy the post. Since December there have been several diplomatic appointments that have been sued for not giving priority to diplomatic and consular career officials to be appointed only in December last year were four and last February were another five appointments demanded by the Diplomatic and Consular Union. Here I want to make a point of clarity, and that is that, although the practice of giving posts in exchange for political favours or closeness is not new or recent, if it is paradoxical to do so in a Government that promised changes. The diplomatic career is perhaps one of the areas of public service that has the clearest technical requirements. However, it is the one most used to pay for political favors. In this regard, I asked María Angélica García, the president of Unidiplo, the Union of diplomatic and consular career officials of Colombia, how to dignify the diplomatic career

18:42 so that it does not become the currency of exchange of governments. This told me to diplomatic and consular career already professional and specialized technique. What should be technified is the foreign service in its entirety, to be started then by strengthening the entrance to the diplomatic and consular career through the public contest that is carried out annually, but this must be much broader and inclusive, that is, it must reach each of the regions of the country and it must result in the annual income of at least twenty to thirty new third secretaries. Provisionality is seen as an exception and not as the rule, as has been the case during each of the governments In other words, career diplomats must be given the preferential right to hold positions abroad, in accordance with the constitutional principle of merit.

19:34 We must also understand the importance of having an experienced diplomatic corps in countries such as Brazil and Chile, which manage their foreign policy in ninety- nine percent, with career diplomats, which ensures that attention to our foreign nationals is adequate and not improvised, and also, of course, the interests of our foreign policy are achieved. Designating public commissions to people who do not meet the requirements is also a form of corruption to prevent the next government from using the foreign service as a currency of exchange. The current one must start a transformation from now on. That is to say, this is simply a matter of political will. The other part of this meaningless discussion is that of activists as necessary in a country like ours. Activists are irrigated all over Colombia defending just causes. There are no sexual and reproductive rights environment, anti- racism and anti- war activists. For each cause there is at least one or one and it is this profession sadly, one of the most insecure in the country.

20:45 They are accused of being people with a great passion for their causes, but ignorant of the functioning of the State, of its bureaucracy, until they are pointed out as naive dreamers better said impractical and efficient for a public office. The writer Ricardo Silva reflects on this in his column when he tells Oro Comillas, both technocrats and activists, he seems to exasperate them with politics as things are so far from common sense. It would be a miracle recognized by the Church if they understood that only three percent of the old people in Putumayo had a pension. There is a devastating statistics of the Comptrollership that can only be solved if the moral strength of the activists is driven by the experience of the professionals I close quotes. I looked for Francisco Javier Vera, a climate activist better known as the Environmentalist Child, to tell me what the role of activism in the country has been. This told me well. I think to understand why assets are important for the country that let me have that is an activist activist. For me he is a person who has to identify a problem and basically seeks to solve those problems. And, of course, our society has hundreds and thousands of problems, including war, automatic change, and so on, international injustice, not administta. It has a phrase that seems to me very interesting to define it and it is the tomato injustice as something personal.

22:15 I think that' s what activists do. They identify these injustices precisely and basically transform them, they are transforming those problems. They are providing solutions to those problems that we have as a society. And yet, pitifully like activism, the word activist is closely associated with politics. No, I mean, pitifully. No. Activism is a political act. In fact, it is an exercise of citizenship, basically through which we raise our voices. But perhaps people are using it more and more pejoratively, associating it with partisan politics, with electoral politics, although it is not that kind of policy where the following delictivism is wanted. Basically so for me, that' s why activism is important and, in addition to some, protecting them, centivizing them and fostering them in society from democracy. And, on the other hand, it is of no value to promote public education for all if later professionals and people who have dedicated their lives to the academy close the doors of public service.

23:26 In this regard, the results of the Government' s call for doctors are more eloquent. If you don' t remember, on August 10, two thousand twenty- two, just begun his term of office, President Gustavo Petro, launched a call for citizens with a doctorate degree who resided abroad in the country, with the aim of receiving the profiles of all the people who would like to contribute with their knowledge to the leadership of the government. A few weeks later it was reported that the summons had received living leaves of twenty thousand three hundred and forty- nine persons and that a thousand nine hundred and seventy - nine persons had been selected. However, the selection process left quite a few doubts. For example, it is not known how or by whom was the committee that was lecturing the works of life, the aspects that were evaluated or taken into account to make the selection. Nor is it known in which entities the selected ones would work, nor the type of contract or linkage they would have. These concerns have not yet been clarified. They seem a little bit. Then schizophrenic the accusations of President Petro against technocracy and technicians, while breast- feeding for the number of doctors in his government, the summons of doctors and his speech in favor of universal public education. But just for a moment let' s do an exercise. Let' s get technocrats out of all public offices. And I am not just referring to the economists of the National Planning Department and the Ministry of Finance, but to the environmental engineers, biologists and herpetologists of the Ministry of the Environment, and to professionals in education

24:59 as powerful as the Aurora Vergara education of the Ministry of Education. In this sense, I asked Professor Es Basserman a synthegnocrat government is possible. That' s what he told me. I think the question is wrong. Tecnocracy is etymologically the government of technicians, and I believe that no one here has ever pretended that there is a government in technicians. It is clear that politicians rule. What we have is technical and expert support. And if the question arises, then so, if the experts are necessary, if the technicians are necessary, I would say they are absolutely necessary for a government to succeed. Or I' d even go further to the extreme. The absence of technicians and experts would, in my opinion, guarantee the failure of any government. That is not a question of elitism, it is a fundamental question of knowledge.

26:12 The main knowledge of technicians and experts is the recognition of where mistakes are made and how to avoid mistakes. Economic experts know which policies are successful and which policies inevitably lead to failure. And those are immense support a great help for the success of any ruler. I believe, as other people have already said, that there has been a false dichotomy between technocrats and activists. I know honest and passionate technicians for their work that they have studied at foreign universities thanks to scholarships and we flatter ourselves with the istex that they have returned to serve the country. I know activists who know and manage the aurocracy of the state that go beyond passion and its causes and that do not stay alone in the discourse, but that achieve pragmatic and tangible changes with their work, the strengths of one and the other combined. They would make suitable officials, who are experts in the topics, who work, who have the technical knowledge, but who also know the realities of the country, who govern beyond the figures and the tables of excel and are activists passionate about the public service, beyond the bureaucracy and for the good of the Colombians. The country wants and needs ministers, directors, managers, officials in general, who are competent and probos or,

27:44 as Ricardo Silva said in his column Auro Comillas, it is enough to think of a crude ambassador or an anti- corruption friscal who dedicates free time to corruption to realize that the citizenry does not fear technocrats, activists or s s s s cynicals incompetent hill quotes. Knowledge cannot continue to be a cause of fear or punishment, such as the genesis of the Bible, but it cannot be synonymous with access to power for a few in an elite. I am Roberto Pombo and this was chapter eighty of my questions. I' ll see you in a next chapter from now on. This chapter of my questions is available on all podcast platforms. This episode was made possible by Kafam, inspiring Smiles. Dirección Roberto Pombo, Producción General, Juan Abel Gutiérrez, editorial advisor, Daniel san Peerrospina scripts Juan Abel Gutiérrez and Johnny Rodríguez. Field production Marcela Salazar and Lucía Beltrán. Post- production of audio Carlos Bernar